Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
Having a greater impact on future generations doesn't necessarily implies greater artistry, and even though Brahms brought self criticism to a near fault, he is still the greater composer in my book.

This is true for many other composers.

Take Bach for example. Even during his lifetime, his music was old, rejected.

Carl philip Bach, Emmanuel Bach, Gluck, Joseph Haydn, those are the names of the composers who formed and shaped the way music was going to be made on future generations.

Nonetheless, i still consider Bach to be the greater artist of any of the more 'modern' composers of his time, even the great Joseph Haydn.

Likewise, i consider Mozart to be a greater composer then Haydn even though the latter had a bigger role in shaping the music of his time...

[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited 07-18-2005).]

Again this could go round in circles - Tchaikovsky considered Brahms to be a mediocre S...! Now I don't share that view but it shows even the greats couldn't agree amongst themselves. Despite my dislike of Wagner the man, I concede he was a great artist.

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'Man know thyself'

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Peter:
Again this could go round in circles - Tchaikovsky considered Brahms to be a mediocre S...! Now I don't share that view but it shows even the greats couldn't agree amongst themselves. Despite my dislike of Wagner the man, I concede he was a great artist.

I'm not saying Wagner wasn't a great artist, i'm just saying that Brahms was greater, IMHO at any rate.

Tchaikovsky, now i know why i could never suffer that sentimentalist hack

[Sorrano]

I don't suppose that either Mozart, Haydn, or Bach could view the debate on this forum without amusement. They seemed to be rather respectful of each other's talents and abilities (Haydn and Mozart in particular). Besides, without a common criteria how can one say that another is greater?

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Joy:
From reading the posts it looks like none of us have heard this story. Perhaps you can enlighten us?
Joseph bologne"chevalier de saint George" or "voltaire of music".
born in Guadalupe in 25/12/1739 dead in paris10/06/1799, a son of a senegalian slave and a noble farmer .
he studied whith Gossec who hired him as the maestro of the amator concert , he was an escrimor a gendarme, he was also the musical director for king LouisXVI but he was fired for racial considerations (especially the opposition of noble women).
He was an excellent violonist (better than mozart!)he composed around 215 work (symhponies ,opera buffa, violon concertos string quartets ,sonatas...)and it was him who command and create parisian symphonies in 1787!.
he was very famous at this time .
in 1778 when mozart was learning music in paris he refused obstinatly to play under the direction of this black violonist.
Mozart was really jalous to see this colored man enjoying the celebrity and success while he was suffering from pauverty and failure!
mozart was not a good man.
and in comparison we know all of us the story of beethoven and bridgtower!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I don't suppose that either Mozart, Haydn, or Bach could view the debate on this forum without amusement. They seemed to be rather respectful of each other's talents and abilities (Haydn and Mozart in particular). Besides, without a common criteria how can one say that another is greater?

This is true - I don't think things got hostile until the Romantics who seemed to loathe each other! Beethoven was respectful to his great predecessors, not just Handel!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is true - I don't think things got hostile until the Romantics who seemed to loathe each other! Beethoven was respectful to his great predecessors, not just Handel!

And Beethoven was just as quick to name his favourites as we do here. It is interesting that in an anecdote to be found in Thayer, Beethoven was quizzed at a party as to why he rated Handel over Mozart. At first he would not be drawn on the matter, but upon repeated provocation he eventually capitulated and said 'on Olympus everyone knows who is King'.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-19-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
And Beethoven was just as quick to name his favourites as we do here. It is interesting that in an anecdote to be found in Thayer, Beethoven was quizzed at a party as to why he rated Handel over Mozart. At first he would not be drawn on the matter, but upon repeated provocation he eventually capitulated and said 'on Olympus everyone knows who is King'.

Yes but he at least recognised the genius of Bach, Haydn and Mozart.

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'Man know thyself'

[Johan]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I don't suppose that either Mozart, Haydn, or Bach could view the debate on this forum without amusement. They seemed to be rather respectful of each other's talents and abilities (Haydn and Mozart in particular). Besides, without a common criteria how can one say that another is greater?

Quite so, Sorrano! These are incommensurate because of ages and standards. But of course Beethoven himself could have an opinion in this matter...so do we, I see.

[Johan]

Originally posted by Johhan:

We share almost the same name....

Well, as we all know, Mozart met Beethoven when he was
aroun 16 years old, and it cause a great impact on Mozart,
now, we have to remember that Mozart met Beethoven not as
a composer but with his improvise skills...and in fact
Beethoven improvise over an aria of Mozart`s figaro,
i know that improvise is a manner of composition, an
instant composition if you like, but nevertheless Mozart
never had the chance to met the real Beethoven, the
Beethoven that we all know, the Beethoven of the "eroica
symphony" and the "moonlight sonata"...
The point is that if Mozart had a great impact from
Beethoven in that early stages of his career, imagine
what kind of impact could Mozart had if he would ever heard
some of Beethoven music like the fifth symphony.
I think that if Mozart would ever heard Beethoven music
as a composer he would love Beethoven, just like Beethoven
love Mozart!!

Yes, we almost do.
And of sharing: How lovely of you to think like you do.

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Johhan:

We share almost the same name....

Well, as we all know, Mozart met Beethoven when he was
aroun 16 years old, and it cause a great impact on Mozart,
now, we have to remember that Mozart met Beethoven not as
a composer but with his improvise skills...and in fact
Beethoven improvise over an aria of Mozart`s figaro,
i know that improvise is a manner of composition, an
instant composition if you like, but nevertheless Mozart
never had the chance to met the real Beethoven, the
Beethoven that we all know, the Beethoven of the "eroica
symphony" and the "moonlight sonata"...
The point is that if Mozart had a great impact from
Beethoven in that early stages of his career, imagine
what kind of impact could Mozart had if he would ever heard
some of Beethoven music like the fifth symphony.
I think that if Mozart would ever heard Beethoven music
as a composer he would love Beethoven, just like Beethoven
love Mozart!!

but there is no evidence that beethoven have met mozart . beethoven wants to meet mozart for a long time... and i think if they have met and if beethoven took some lessons with mozart the same thing that happend with haydn will be repeted again.

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Rod:
I haven't heard any chamber music by Haydn or Mozart that surpasses Beethoven's opus sonatas and trios etc from even his mid to late 20s. Beethoven is simply light years ahead.

Ha, then you need to learn to listen more intently.

Beethoven's early chamber output it's merely bigger in scope, nothing more.

Saying those works are light years above Mozart's chamber music it's like saying Mahler first symphonies are light years ahead of Beethoven's based on the same grounds.

Doesn't fly...

[Rod]

Originally posted by Opus131:
Ha, then you need to learn to listen more intently.

Beethoven's early chamber output it's merely bigger in scope, nothing more.

Saying those works are light years above Mozart's chamber music it's like saying Mahler first symphonies are light years ahead of Beethoven's based on the same grounds.

Doesn't fly...

I disagree. Mozart wrote nothing like Beethoven's op1, op2 op3, op5 or op7 op9 or op10/3 or the Pathetique for example, to name but a few! This is very complex sophisticated music.

Beethoven is always better than Mahler by any criterion.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-20-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I disagree. Mozart wrote nothing like Beethoven's op1, op2 op3, op5 or op7 op9 or op10/3 or the Pathetique for example, to name but a few! This is very complex sophisticated music.

Well Mozart did - K.546, K.563, K.423,K.424, K.475 and K.457 to name a few. This is also complex sophisitcated music.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well Mozart did - K.546, K.563, K.423,K.424, K.475 and K.457 to name a few. This is also complex sophisitcated music.

The assertion presented here was to the effect that Beethoven in his early period was 'less mature' (ie not as good!) as Mozart at a similar age. I restate this is not the case, Beethoven is at the very least the equal of Mozart with the music I presented above. I have not been particularly satisfied with the chamber music of Haydn or Mozart after my experience with Beethoven, whose grasp of form and content is in my opinon far better.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The assertion presented here was to the effect that Beethoven in his early period was 'less mature' (ie not as good!) as Mozart at a similar age. I restate this is not the case, Beethoven is at the very least the equal of Mozart with the music I presented above. I have not been particularly satisfied with the chamber music of Haydn or Mozart after my experience with Beethoven, whose grasp of form and content is in my opinon far better.

Yes I agree and quite frankly people tend to overvalue the early Mozart works due to his prodigy status. In fact only very few works written before he was 20 are masterpieces. Conversely as you say the early works of Beethoven are dismissed, but I would say they are easily comparable with those of Mozart at the same age, outstanding amongst them being the Joseph Cantata. However credit where credit is due and between the ages of 25-35 Mozart produced a string of great works comparable to Beethoven's equally astonishing achievements at that age. That Beethoven went further is because he came later and learnt from the models he inherited - this he himself acknowledged with works such as the C minor piano concerto being influenced by Mozart's in the same key.

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'Man know thyself'