Wir betreten feuertrunken!!!

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Where's the harm!!!!!??? The harm I'm principally thinking about is not religious anyway, it's musical! I suggest if you insist on hearing music in English I can recommend at least 2 dozen (for starters) fantastic Handel pieces that will suffice in this respect.

Well, I don't insist on anything. And music cannot be English. Or German. Music is music. I'm still confused about Handel's nationality. A transplanted German making his music fit English words? What if he'd stayed in Germany, & wrote the same music to German or Latin text? Would English translation from that text be wrong - even if the translated version were identical to the English text he actually did write, which you say is fantastic?!?

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PDG (Peter)

[PDG]

......nearly forgot.......

Euphony, for the Scottish & Irish folk songs, it is a curious fact that Beethoven was kept in ignorance of the words of these while making his arrangements.......

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Quite simply because a Catholic Mass must by default be sung in Latin, also the whole pretext to the text chosen is based on a Catholic conception of Chritianity, so I doubt if a direct English translation would be acceptable as a piece of protestant church music. This Mass is a Mass and not some choral symphony to do with as you please. Like it or leave it!

Beethoven wrote to Breitkopf and Hartel in 1808 re the C Major Mass "Bring out a vocal score with German words, I shall not object..." According to Schindler, in 1823 when Countess Schaffgotsch brought B his first Mass with a new German text by Scholz, B broke down in tears and was so impressed that he intended sending the new Mass in D to Scholz as well - Scholz died before this was possible.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Beethoven wrote to Breitkopf and Hartel in 1808 re the C Major Mass "Bring out a vocal score with German words, I shall not object..." According to Schindler, in 1823 when Countess Schaffgotsch brought B his first Mass with a new German text by Scholz, B broke down in tears and was so impressed that he intended sending the new Mass in D to Scholz as well - Scholz died before this was possible.

I have already mentioned the setting of these works to German texts. Regarding the Missa Solemnis, unless this text was some kind of miracle of quality, I doubt that this story can be relied upon as being totally accurate tear-wise! Of course B was interested in selling the works and a German text would certainly increase the appeal of the piece to parties put off by the latin. But who these days would find the latin offensive (other than hard core protestants). Therefore there is no requirement to change it today. Quite frankly I find the whole idea ridiculous.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by MCS:
[b]

Originally posted by Rod:
Quite simply because a Catholic Mass must by default be sung in Latin,

That was certainly true 200 years ago, but not any more. Masses are sung in English all the time now.
Mary

Catholic Mass's sung in English! What's the world comming to!? May as well go the whole way, dump the virgin cult as well and you'd become a good protestant!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:

I'm still confused about Handel's nationality. A transplanted German making his music fit English words? What if he'd stayed in Germany, & wrote the same music to German or Latin text? Would English translation from that text be wrong - even if the translated version were identical to the English text he actually did write, which you say is fantastic?!?

Forgot to respond to this, Handel died an official Englishman and he officially Anglisised his name. If any one spelling of his name is to be used I would use the English spelling, though I do not regard him as a true Englishman, he's still a blood German, brought up in Germany. In Baroque times you could have a composition that made use of two or three languages intermingled! Though this was extremely rare with Handel performances. Handel on many occasions adapted the same music for totally different texts with different languages without any apparent decline in quality or relevance or whatever, but this was the composers choice and work. Also the whole psychology behind music of this nature and time allowed for it, it's hard to explain. In B's case I can't see any improvement arising from writing a new version today with text in English, quite the contrary in fact, so why waste time doing it? Who do you suggest would be so vain or stupid enough to even try?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Ummm.....Barry Cooper?! If we're still talking about the Missa Solemnis, then I agree that any translation would be a transgression. But "stupid" & "vain" are inappropriate words to use; an English text would make the work accessible to many who find it inaccessible because of its foreign/religious overtones. Okay, it IS a religious work, but surely anything which might help bring Beethoven's musical message to the masses (undeserving though they are, I know you're going to say!), is worthy of consideration. The number of people attending church is declining steadily; life is different to how it was 200 years ago. English-speaking people might actually enjoy singing it if they understood the words! If there's a God, I guarantee you that he doesn't speak only Latin! And even if he does, it still makes no difference - the message in the words remains unchanged. You say Handel swapped different texts around for certain scores, & I believe that Beethoven would not have objected to similar, careful treatment of his Mass, especially in these times.
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PDG (Peter)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 05-29-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Ummm.....Barry Cooper?! If we're still talking about the Missa Solemnis, then I agree that any translation would be a transgression. But "stupid" & "vain" are inappropriate words to use; an English text would make the work accessible to many who find it inaccessible because of its foreign/religious overtones. Okay, it IS a religious work, but surely anything which might help bring Beethoven's musical message to the masses (undeserving though they are, I know you're going to say!), is worthy of consideration. The number of people attending church is declining steadily; life is different to how it was 200 years ago. English-speaking people might actually enjoy singing it if they understood the words! If there's a God, I guarantee you that he doesn't speak only Latin! And even if he does, it still makes no difference - the message in the words remains unchanged. You say Handel swapped different texts around for certain scores, & I believe that Beethoven would not have objected to similar, careful treatment of his Mass, especially in these times.

Cooper's name occured to me also after I posted my note! But I presume he has learned his lesson. I stick with my words vain and stupid. If anyone can't handle the words they shouldn't listen to the composition. Most recordings come with a translation, so this point is not an issue. If you want to turn it into a choral symphony (which is what it would become) why not listen to some Mahler instead, if you can bear it. It's not an issue about God. I'm no Christian but I can easily tolerate these words because they are meaningfull in their own context. Beehoven's music reflects this meaning on a most personal level, so what would it all mean if the text was changed to something different by someone almost 200 years later? If any meaningfull changes are to be done, it is the composer and he alone who must do it.

In baroque opera the words themselves were of a lesser significance, as long as they were relevant it is the music that carries most of the message, supported by the text. With later music the nature of the text becomes more important and a greater effort is made to make the music reflect the words more pricisely. There is a greater sence of fantasy in baroque opera as a result, realism is largely absent.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
If any meaningfull changes are to be done, it is the composer and he alone who must do it.

Then why did B approve of Scholz's efforts with the C major Mass and request a translation from him of the Missa Solemnis?

If the words are less important in Baroque music, presumably you have no objection to Messiah sung in Greek?

Like you I personally prefer a work to be sung in the original language with a translation provided, but I don't object on the grounds you raise. There can be no doubt that Shakespeare is better in English and Goethe in German, yet we don't deny ourselves translations.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-30-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Then why did B approve of Scholz's efforts with the C major Mass and request a translation from him of the Missa Solemnis?

I was under the impression I'd already answered this point. B also allowed publishers to make arrangements of his instrumental works. It was all to do with business, part of the deal, sometimes it was a financial necessity. B would have been aware that the original conception would undoubtedly suffer as a result, but it was an integral part of the music business. As long as the original was also available it would be allowable. Today such activity is unnecessary. Where would it all end??!! And for what possible gain?

Originally posted by Peter:

If the words are less important in Baroque music, presumably you have no objection to Messiah sung in Greek?

If Handel himself arraged it so, the music would still be good. If some Tom, Dick or Peter got his hands on the Missa today, God knows what the result would be.

Originally posted by Peter:

If Handel set them personally
Like you I personally prefer a work to be sung in the original language with a translation provided, but I don't object on the grounds you raise. There can be no doubt that Shakespeare is better in English and Goethe in German, yet we don't deny ourselves translations.

Any translation involves to a certain extent a re-write, both of text and music. Usually with Handel however the text would have been a different script altogether. Handel could do a good job of it. Who is qualified to re-write the Missa? Not one soul on this planet! And who is denied a translation of the Missa??? I'll send anyone a copy if they need it!!

After all this I must say, contrary to certain opinions, I must be the least radical, most conservative opinion (both musical and biographical) and thus the LEAST PROVOCATIVE, at this forum - a place where, so it seems, anything goes!! Regardless of whether is makes any sence or has any logic!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
After all this I must say, contrary to certain opinions, I must be the least radical, most conservative opinion (both musical and biographical) and thus the LEAST PROVOCATIVE, at this forum - a place where, so it seems, anything goes!! Regardless of whether is makes any sence or has any logic!!

I've already stated that my preference is always for the original language - my only point was that B himself (for whatever reason) sanctioned someone other than himself to do German translations of the Latin text. If he felt only the composer could do it, why didn't he?

Not wishing to be provocative, but it seems illogical to say only the composer is fit to translate a text when we know B asked Scholz to do just that.




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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I've already stated that my preference is always for the original language -

Oh yes?? And why do you consider the original to be the best?

Originally posted by Peter:

my only point was that B himself (for whatever reason) sanctioned someone other than himself to do German translations of the Latin text. If he felt only the composer could do it, why didn't he?

I've aleady answered this point at least twice. So I'll answer it again, the composer for the translation would have been of little consequece to Beethoven, for that translator was simply undertaking a business task - like an arrangement. We can be more purist on the matter today, there is no need for such arrangements - we need only concern ourselves with the musical issue, the financial one died with Beethoven.

Originally posted by Peter:

Not wishing to be provocative, but it seems illogical to say only the composer is fit to translate a text when we know B asked Scholz to do just that.

And I have told you why he asked Scholz to do just that. It would have instantly opened the music to a huge market that it would otherwise never be exposed to. This is a particular problem for religious works, certainly at that time. The translation would be simply an 'arrangement' like those of most of B's other well known pieces at that time.

What seems illogical to me is why you bother continuously arguing a point that, by your own admission, conflicts with your own ultimate stance on the matter!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Oh yes?? And why do you consider the original to be the best?

For the same reasons that Claudie mentioned; the music was written specifically with particular words in mind that do not fit so well in translation - I accept this! But I don't think B asked for those translations purely for financial reasons, I think he wanted a wider public to understand the words as well which is why he did not object to a German translation.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-30-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
For the same reasons that Claudie mentioned; the music was written specifically with particular words in mind that do not fit so well in translation - I accept this! But I don't think B asked for those translations purely for financial reasons, I think he wanted a wider public to understand the words as well which is why he did not object to a German translation.

Whatever his motivation (I'm not going to waste any more time on this point), there is not motivation whatsoever for anyone to embark upon a translation now. Concert goers today know what the latin text is all about. Thus, as I have said, we have only the music to consider and you yourself admit that the original setting is the best one to be used. If people were really interested in this sort of thing today there would be plenty of recordings in German and English (and other languages) to accomodate this market, business is business as I have said. In my many years of scavenging racks of CDs I have seen only one issue of the Mass in C sung in German, and none of the Solemn Mass. Why waste time pondering something that nobody wants? Lets concentrate on getting the Latin version right before we worry about the Danish version!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Whatever his motivation (I'm not going to waste any more time on this point), there is not motivation whatsoever for anyone to embark upon a translation now. Concert goers today know what the latin text is all about. Thus, as I have said, we have only the music to consider and you yourself admit that the original setting is the best one to be used. If people were really interested in this sort of thing today there would be plenty of recordings in German and English (and other languages) to accomodate this market, business is business as I have said. In my many years of scavenging racks of CDs I have seen only one issue of the Mass in C sung in German, and none of the Solemn Mass. Why waste time pondering something that nobody wants? Lets concentrate on getting the Latin version right before we worry about the Danish version!

Fair enough!

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'Man know thyself'