Wir betreten feuertrunken!!!

[euphony131]

I know I've brought this topic up before, but a recent article in Opera News has got me going. A Wagner Opera (The Valkyrie) which was performed in ENGLISH was quite favorably reviewed by one critic.

The critic, Jon Alan Conrad noted how the English-spoken performance was superior to even using "supertitles" because it "cuts through with a profound communicative directness that even a lifetime of studying and understanding German as a foreign language cannot equal."

Whoa! Some strong words on the subject. What do the rest of you think? I'll always love the German version since that's how Beethoven originally conceived it and it's what I'm used to, but frankly I don't see why we couldn't try an English version of say the 9th or Missa Solemnis or even Fidelio. Can we honestly say it'd be so bad when we've never heard it before? I think it might actually bring in a whole new slew of fans and maybe help rejuvenate a dying fan-base.

I don't think it'd be sacriligeous just to try it. After all, we're keeping with the spirit of the Master by trying to reach out to as wide an audience as possible. Let's face it, we can't expect younger, pop-loving audiences to sit through something they don't even understand. (At least have a "supertitle" screen. Why not???)


[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 05-24-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:
I don't think it'd be sacriligeous just to try it. After all, we're keeping with the spirit of the Master by trying to reach out to as wide an audience as possible. Let's face it, we can't expect younger, pop-loving audiences to sit through something they don't even understand. (At least have a "supertitle" screen. Why not???)

I don't see any harm in trying it, after all Beethoven read Shakespeare in German!

From my own point of view it doesn't bother me as I find words distract from the music anyway - I prefer to read the translation separately and then concentrate solely on the music.

I should add that I think that English isn't a particularly attractive language when sung - Italian is of course the most musical language of all - Russian the most hideous when sung!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-24-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
I know I've brought this topic up before, but a recent article in Opera News has got me going. A Wagner Opera (The Valkyrie) which was performed in ENGLISH was quite favorably reviewed by one critic.

The critic, Jon Alan Conrad noted how the English-spoken performance was superior to even using "supertitles" because it "cuts through with a profound communicative directness that even a lifetime of studying and understanding German as a foreign language cannot equal."

Whoa! Some strong words on the subject. What do the rest of you think? I'll always love the German version since that's how Beethoven originally conceived it and it's what I'm used to, but frankly I don't see why we couldn't try an English version of say the 9th or Missa Solemnis or even Fidelio. Can we honestly say it'd be so bad when we've never heard it before? I think it might actually bring in a whole new slew of fans and maybe help rejuvenate a dying fan-base.

I don't think it'd be sacriligeous just to try it. After all, we're keeping with the spirit of the Master by trying to reach out to as wide an audience as possible. Let's face it, we can't expect younger, pop-loving audiences to sit through something they don't even understand. (At least have a "supertitle" screen. Why not???)


[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 05-24-2001).]

I've heard an English version of the 9th and it was a ludicrous joke. By default you cannot have an English translation of the Missa, it's a Catholic Mass, though I think B did perform a few sections of it sung to a different German text. He did the same with the Mass in C. Fidelio was performed here in London by the ENO to an English script which the critics slated. I did not go to see it on principle, frankly I wouldn't go to any B concert if the sung text was anything other than the original conception - to a large degree the music depends on the existing word setting, but regardless I have never felt the need to experience any translation. Certainly I would not expect any music connoisseur to be interested in such things. With potential beginners I don't think language is the problem, it's getting them to learn to listen to a whole new type of music per se. Anyway, in concerts I've been to sung in English, I still couldn't understand half of what they were saying or singing!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-24-2001).]

[kerryblue]

Good God, y'all.

I cannot imgaine traslating the Schiller Ode into English and then fobbing that off as Beethoven's 9th. He set Schiller's lovely poem to music, not some English version of same. Can you imagine the translation in today's English?

Here's one rendering:

Joy, bright spark of divinity,
Daughter of Elysium,
Fire-Inspired we tread
Thy sanctuary
Thy magic power re-united
All that custom has divided
All men become brothers
Under the sway of thy gentle wings.


My God have we stooped this low culturally that someone can't attend the 9th because the last movement is not in English?

Come on, Beethoven purists, this is a struggle for the very soul of classical music.

Wem der große Wurf gelungen,
Eines Freundes Freund zu sein,
Wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
Mische seinen Jubel ein!
Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele
Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund!
Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle
Weinend sich aus diesem Bund.

Regards to all

Originally posted by euphony131:
I know I've brought this topic up before, but a recent article in Opera News has got me going. A Wagner Opera (The Valkyrie) which was performed in ENGLISH was quite favorably reviewed by one critic.

The critic, Jon Alan Conrad noted how the English-spoken performance was superior to even using "supertitles" because it "cuts through with a profound communicative directness that even a lifetime of studying and understanding German as a foreign language cannot equal."

Whoa! Some strong words on the subject. What do the rest of you think? I'll always love the German version since that's how Beethoven originally conceived it and it's what I'm used to, but frankly I don't see why we couldn't try an English version of say the 9th or Missa Solemnis or even Fidelio. Can we honestly say it'd be so bad when we've never heard it before? I think it might actually bring in a whole new slew of fans and maybe help rejuvenate a dying fan-base.

I don't think it'd be sacriligeous just to try it. After all, we're keeping with the spirit of the Master by trying to reach out to as wide an audience as possible. Let's face it, we can't expect younger, pop-loving audiences to sit through something they don't even understand. (At least have a "supertitle" screen. Why not???)


[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 05-24-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I should add that I think that English isn't a particularly attractive language when sung

That would be true, if it wasn't for Mr. Handel, and thus it must be false!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Yes, Handel had a great voice. He was the Elvis of his day. Looked just as good in sequined flares, too.



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PDG (Peter)

[Claudie MICAULT]

It is not a question of language, it is a question of "prosodie". For example, if you hear Traviata in french, or Fliegende Holländer, as I did when young in some theaters, you feel uncomfortable. The music is (it depend of the composer) generally written for special words. Can you imagine Dido's death (Purcell) sung in german, french, or italian... and some Haendel's best english arias in russian ???... Glück wrote different music for Iphigenie (for German first and in french for Paris's premiere). So both versions are available.... But Fidelio in spanish ??? I would not like it at all.... Anyway Schiller was german, and B. was german. So the best version remains the original one (as always)!

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Claudie

[MCS]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've heard an English version of the 9th and it was a ludicrous joke. By default you cannot have an English translation of the Missa, it's a Catholic Mass...

Why can't you have an English translation of a mass?

Mary

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
It is not a question of language, it is a question of "prosodie". For example, if you hear Traviata in french, or Fliegende Holländer, as I did when young in some theaters, you feel uncomfortable. The music is (it depend of the composer) generally written for special words.

I think you've hit the nail on the head - this is the reason why the original language is best, although I still find that Russian sounds awkward, even when you've got Pushkin and Tchaikovsky in Eugene Onegin.
If anyone is in doubt though as to the preference of the original language, just listen to the carol 'Stille Nacht' - I've never met anyone who doesn't prefer the German to the English version.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by MCS:
Why can't you have an English translation of a mass?

Mary

Quite simply because a Catholic Mass must by default be sung in Latin, also the whole pretext to the text chosen is based on a Catholic conception of Chritianity, so I doubt if a direct English translation would be acceptable as a piece of protestant church music. This Mass is a Mass and not some choral symphony to do with as you please. Like it or leave it!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

But if your interest in the Mass is primarily musical, then where's the harm? For the non-religious, anything which helps define the music must be advantageous, whether certain nuances are lost or not. Of course the work, if performed properly, must be sung in Latin since that is how it was written, but a belief that only one (dead) language can resonate with your almighty, & that any other is in some way sacrilegeous, is akin to suggesting that God has favourites among us. If you believe this to be so, then you're welcome to him! "From the heart, to the heart." Music is universal, especially Beethoven's. The purists would object - it's what purists do best - but I don't think that Beethoven would have objected to a translation under relaxed circumstances.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
But if your interest in the Mass is primarily musical, then where's the harm? For the non-religious, anything which helps define the music must be advantageous, whether certain nuances are lost or not.

Quite right - this Mass like Bach's is far too long and elaborate for ordinary church use anyway. I personally wouldn't want to hear it sung in English though! - Why not just read a translation and enjoy the music?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
But if your interest in the Mass is primarily musical, then where's the harm? For the non-religious, anything which helps define the music must be advantageous, whether certain nuances are lost or not. Of course the work, if performed properly, must be sung in Latin since that is how it was written, but a belief that only one (dead) language can resonate with your almighty, & that any other is in some way sacrilegeous, is akin to suggesting that God has favourites among us. If you believe this to be so, then you're welcome to him! "From the heart, to the heart." Music is universal, especially Beethoven's. The purists would object - it's what purists do best - but I don't think that Beethoven would have objected to a translation under relaxed circumstances.

Where's the harm!!!!!??? The harm I'm principally thinking about is not religious anyway, it's musical! I suggest if you insist on hearing music in English I can recommend at least 2 dozen (for starters) fantastic Handel pieces that will suffice in this respect.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[MCS]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Quite simply because a Catholic Mass must by default be sung in Latin,

That was certainly true 200 years ago, but not any more. Masses are sung in English all the time now.

...also the whole pretext to the text chosen is based on a Catholic conception of Chritianity, so I doubt if a direct English translation would be acceptable as a piece of protestant church music.

Agreed. But it could be sung in a Catholic church (provided it was large enough to accommodate all the musicians and singers required!)
That said, I would hate to hear it translated. It would certainly lose some of it grandeur and beauty.

Mary

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't see any harm in trying it, after all Beethoven read Shakespeare in German!

He did? Wow, I didn't know or at least I wasn't sure. I thought B. had at least a working knowledge of English as well as some Latin and Greek, no? Didn't he read Homer in Greek and the Bible in Latin? Anyway, that's an interesting point you bring up. Isn't it also true that B. had one of his cantatas (or was it the Mass in C?) translated in English for a wider audience appeal? And let's not forget his Scottish and Irish folksong arrangements -- all in English.

Originally posted by Peter:
I should add that I think that English isn't a particularly attractive language when sung -

I think that depends on the quality of the translation. I'm no linguist, but isn't it true that all European languages have their roots in Latin? Therefore the "differences" are not really that substantial, but rather "cosmetic" in nature. In other words, a good -- that's the key word here: GOOD -- translation ought to bridge if not all, then at least most of the gap, no?

Anyway, it's not my intent to supplant the German in favor of English -- Heavens NO! I was just wondering why we couldn't have both? Is the world not big enough? As I said -- I'll always prefer the German, but am also open to a GOOD English version.

Someone else brought up the subject of "Stille Nacht" and while it may be true that "Silent Night" sounds better in German, it's also true that if there was no English version than more then likely I would never have sung it in middle school.

Unfortunately, that's just the way people are. My middle school teachers would never have acquiesced to teaching a "German" Christmas song, given the tedium of teaching a "foreign" language to little kids, not to mention that a song in "German" isn't exactly a hallmark of the Red, White and Blue. Close-minded? Yes. But many countries tend to be that way when comes to "national pride." Go figure.



[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 05-26-2001).]