Did Beethoven ever use a slide on a stringed instrument.

[Preston]

Originally posted by Peter:
This does not mean that we can retrospectively impose this on the music and simply assume it is what the composer wanted...

Imagine, "ALL THE SOUNDS YOU COULD EVER GET"!!!! That would be simply unreal. I highly imagine that Beethoven would have used more than only the orchestra. So when Beethoven wrote his music, he probably did have different sounds in mind than what he could achieve with an orchestra.

It would be probably be impoper writing to put piano effects in a piano sonata. The effects you mention probably weren't what Beethoven needed to use, seeing as they are nothing compared to what we can get today. While they sound very interesting, wild, etc. and all, they are nothing compared to what we can get today.

What we must ask is what the piano sonata is? What it can do sound wise? When I hear a piano sonata I hear many different sounds that the composer tries to get out of the piano. Although, some composers may write strictly for the piano. If someone understood all the sounds and what can be gotten out of the piano (all the sounds and everything like that) then they could tell us what the piano could be turned into in the future. I think that Beethoven would have known this.

I am not saying to try and remake Beethoven's music, by any means. But if someone knew exactly what Beethoven was saying note for note, and I mean exactly, then I feel it would be ok to apply these sounds to Beethoven's music. But ONLY and I mean ONLY if someone knew his music note for note. Otherwise, the composer would not appreciate it, and I mean Beethoven.

This was kind of hard to explain, so I doubt that it makes perfect sense.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-22-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Imagine, "ALL THE SOUNDS YOU COULD EVER GET"!!!! That would be simply unreal. I highly imagine that Beethoven would have used more than only the orchestra. So when Beethoven wrote his music, he probably did have different sounds in mind than what he could achieve with an orchestra.

It would be probably be impoper writing to put piano effects in a piano sonata. The effects you mention probably weren't what Beethoven needed to use, seeing as they are nothing compared to what we can get today. While they sound very interesting, wild, etc. and all, they are nothing compared to what we can get today.

What we must ask is what the piano sonata is? What it can do sound wise? When I hear a piano sonata I hear many different sounds that the composer tries to get out of the piano. Although, some composers may write strictly for the piano. If someone understood all the sounds and what can be gotten out of the piano (all the sounds and everything like that) then they could tell us what the piano could be turned into in the future. I think that Beethoven would have known this.

I am not saying to try and remake Beethoven's music, by any means. But if someone knew exactly what Beethoven was saying note for note, and I mean exactly, then I feel it would be ok to apply these sounds to Beethoven's music. But ONLY and I mean ONLY if someone knew his music note for note. Otherwise, the composer would not appreciate it, and I mean Beethoven.

This was kind of hard to explain, so I doubt that it makes perfect sense.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-22-2006).]

Certainly the piano is capable of an infinite variety of sounds but even there today's modern instrument produces different sounds from the old Fortepianos. I think it is impossible to imagine every conceivable sound, especially when you consider that people hear things in different ways as well - in another hundred years time there might well be sounds as inconceivable now as the synthesiser was in the 18th century. I think the resources Beethoven used at the time perfectly express everything he had to say - you can't say he didn't use particular effects that were available then such as flute slides, Bells and Col Legno (playing with the wood of the bow, which Haydn actually used much earlier in symphony no.67) simply because we have better effects today - how could he have know that? For all the advances in technology and in 'electronic effects' few would claim that the avant-garde music of John Cage, Stockhausen and Boulez equals let alone surpasses the achievements of Bach and Beethoven! Like all great art Beethoven's music reflects the times it was conceived in, adding new effects because we think he would have wanted it is inappropiate as it reflects our wishes not his and where do you draw the line? Do we do away with the orchestra and simply have electronic reproductions?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-22-2006).]

[Preston]

I believe he could express what he had to say, but not perfectly.

Never do away with something like the orchestra!!!

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-22-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
I believe he could express what he had to say, but not perfectly.

Never do away with something like the orchestra!!!

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-22-2006).]

Well I don't think there is much music in this world that is as perfect or more than Beethoven's.

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Now that you mention it, I believe that, also. Interesting and amazing, isn't it? Although, not too surprising, it's Beethoven!!!

Once again, never do away with the orchestra!

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-22-2006).]

[Preston]

Speaking of sounds, I was wondering how many sounds do y'all think Beethoven could hear in his head in perfect harmony and clarity? When I say perfect clarity I mean like actually hearing an instrument being played.

I feel that Beethoven definitly had this feat, and that he could imagine and hear quite a lot of different sounds at the same time in perfect clarity and harmony.

I can't hear imagined sounds in perfect clarity but I can get some close to good harmony. Not having good clarity messes up everything though.

Preston

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Speaking of sounds, I was wondering how many sounds do y'all think Beethoven could hear in his head in perfect harmony and clarity? When I say perfect clarity I mean like actually hearing an instrument being played.

I feel that Beethoven definitly had this feat, and that he could imagine and hear quite a lot of different sounds at the same time in perfect clarity and harmony.

I can't hear imagined sounds in perfect clarity but I can get some close to good harmony. Not having good clarity messes up everything though.

Preston

You might be interested in Luigi Russolo who was a futurist composer at the beginning of the 20th century who envisaged and created new instruments that were designed to produce noise!

He presented a manifesto which outlined his theories http://luigi.russolo.free.fr/arnoise.html

and point 7 of the conclusion says "The variety of noises is infinite. If today, when we have perhaps a thousand different machines, we can distinguish a thousand different noises, tomorrow, as new machines multiply, we will be able to distinguish ten, twenty, or thirty thousand different noises, not merely in a simply imitative way, but to combine them according to our imagination."



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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Interesting Peter, thank you for that. I don't like the name futurists. I don't like he puts down the orchestra. What about the sonatas, quartets, symphonies, concerto, etc. Those are all forms of writing that should be treasured and followed to the end of time, in my opinion, whether the sounds change in them they are still forms of writing. And very precise forms at that. I think he underestimates the sounds of the orchestra.

I imagine that Beethoven could imagine in perfect clarity and harmony quite a lot. I feel that if you take every single instrument in the modern full orchestra and they all played different notes that Beethoven could imagine it in perfect clarity! That is over 100 instuments making a jumble of sound and Beethoven hearing it perfectly. I feel he could do more than that though. Some say that might be impossible, but I feel it to be possible. What do y'all think? It is a God like quality.

Peter or Chris, do you know why my signature is not showing up?

Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-23-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
You might be interested in Luigi Russolo who was a futurist composer at the beginning of the 20th century.....

Huh? A Futurist Composer? I'm a Backwards Nostalgist. Is that similar?

[Preston]

figured it out

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music-it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Interesting Peter, thank you for that. I don't like the name futurists. I don't like he puts down the orchestra. What about the sonatas, quartets, symphonies, concerto, etc. Those are all forms of writing that should be treasured and followed to the end of time, in my opinion, whether the sounds change in them they are still forms of writing. And very precise forms at that. I think he underestimates the sounds of the orchestra.

I imagine that Beethoven could imagine in perfect clarity and harmony quite a lot. I feel that if you take every single instrument in the modern full orchestra and they all played different notes that Beethoven could imagine it in perfect clarity! That is over 100 instuments making a jumble of sound and Beethoven hearing it perfectly. I feel he could do more than that though. Some say that might be impossible, but I feel it to be possible. What do y'all think? It is a God like quality.


Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-23-2006).]

I think some of the new instruments he invented were intended to be performed with orchestra. Don't forget that the first decade of the 20th century was a very experimental time in the arts and other areas - people were looking for something new which is why it was termed futurist. In this light his ideas were no different to Schoenberg's dismantling of tonality. I think his theories were wrong, the idea that noise was the way to go seems ludicrous! Ultimately these ideas led to the avante-garde electronic music of Stockhausen and Cage, 'music' I'm afraid I have little empathy with.

The point of all this was in relation to your comments on sound to show there is an infinite variety and the impossibility of any one individual conceiving these. This brings us back to Beethoven and shows that an artist has to work with the materials available to him in his day and why it is dangerous to look back and say for example 'ah had he had the synthesiser he definitely would have used it'. Beethoven certainly as one of the greatest of all composers knew exactly what he was doing, he knew the effects he wanted, he knew the individual sounds and the combinations of various instruments - his deafness in no way effected his ability to internally 'hear' these sounds. That is why musicians today pay total homage to the actual notes he wrote, unlike the 19th century when it was common for artists even as great as Liszt to embellish the music with 'special effects' to the detriment of Beethoven and the satisfaction of their own egos!

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Yeah, I don't know about all that noise stuff. I think he is saying that machines make sound. And that one day machines could be the answer to all sounds, for music.

I feel it is definitly completely impossible to imagine all the sounds. But I do feel that Beethoven knew what he wanted to write and the feelings he needed to express. By understanding that he would understand the sounds that he wanted.

I believe that Beethoven did know exactly what he wanted, also, but I still feel he couldn't completely achieve it with the orchestra. I believe that Beethoven knew sounds far ahead of his time.

This is all I am going to say about this.

Kind Regards,
Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music-it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-25-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Yeah, I don't know about all that noise stuff. I think he is saying that machines make sound. And that one day machines could be the answer to all sounds, for music.

I feel it is definitly completely impossible to imagine all the sounds. But I do feel that Beethoven knew what he wanted to write and the feelings he needed to express. By understanding that he would understand the sounds that he wanted.

I believe that Beethoven did know exactly what he wanted, also, but I still feel he couldn't completely achieve it with the orchestra. I believe that Beethoven knew sounds far ahead of his time.

This is all I am going to say about this.

Kind Regards,
Preston

It's been an interesting discussion, and regarding Luigi Russolo he did in a way predict the future because 'noise' was the route taken by many avante-garde composers who sort to do away with traditional instruments. I think Music and noise are quite distinct, one is the orderly presentation of sounds, the other chaos. Dissonance is essential for music, but if there is nothing but dissonance you have noise.

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'Man know thyself'