Did Beethoven ever use a slide on a stringed instrument.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Preston,
Your use of the word "slide" has me off kilter a bit, but your description of sliding from one note to a different pitched note is equally descriptive of a "slur", which is 2 or more tied notes of different pitch. If they are played legato rather than articulated, then they would indeed constitute a "slide" as you describe it. And that being the case, certainly slurred pairs do exist in Beethoven's music.

Cheers,
Gurn

Slurs are different Gurn - the technical term for Preston's slide is portamento and it was a stylistic feature of later Romantic music, literally sliding on the string to the next note - just how applicable it is to Classical music is debatable.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
Slurs are different Gurn - the technical term for Preston's slide is portamento and it was a stylistic feature of later Romantic music, literally sliding on the string to the next note - just how applicable it is to Classical music is debatable.

Peter,
OK, I know what portamento is, I just didn't recognize it from the description. In that context then, the comments that portamento is a later fad are quite correct, but that doesn't mean it was not present at all, of course. Things were quite different for fiddlers in the post-Paganini world, but Viotti and other virtuosi had already made use of a lot of these devices, they just didn't make a fetish of it as was done later.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
OK, I know what portamento is, I just didn't recognize it from the description. In that context then, the comments that portamento is a later fad are quite correct, but that doesn't mean it was not present at all, of course. Things were quite different for fiddlers in the post-Paganini world, but Viotti and other virtuosi had already made use of a lot of these devices, they just didn't make a fetish of it as was done later.

Cheers,
Gurn

I don't think he's talking about portamentos, but about real glissandos. These happen a lot in rock music.

btw, good to have you back, Gurn " " Blanston

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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited 09-30-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
OK, I know what portamento is, I just didn't recognize it from the description. In that context then, the comments that portamento is a later fad are quite correct, but that doesn't mean it was not present at all, of course. Things were quite different for fiddlers in the post-Paganini world, but Viotti and other virtuosi had already made use of a lot of these devices, they just didn't make a fetish of it as was done later.

Cheers,
Gurn

Thanks for that Gurn, it is good to see you here again - Rutradelusasa suggests he may be referring to glissandi, I don't know, but anyhow do you have any idea if Leopold Mozart deals with portamento in his violin treatise?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-30-2006).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Rutra,
Thanks for the welcome. I have been reading all along, but really didn't want to get involved in what was going on, lest I lose my equable temperament

Peter,
Thanks to you, too.
I don't know, but I can find out. I think a glissando runs through a lot more notes. In all liklihood, the best example of one is the clarinet's introductory entrance to Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue". As you can see there, he "slides" through every note for about 2 octaves! I'll be back later with some info from Leopold.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

So far, I can say with certainty that he discussed portamento (and glissando and vibrato). What I can't say with certainty (but what i am quite sure of) is how he applied this to the violin. All of these devices were devised for singing, and adapted to the violin for the purpose of imitating the human voice. In the Classical Era, portamento was usually indicated by tacking a grace note onto the front of a slurred pair. And it was "called off" by marking the notes "staccato". But like all ornaments at this time, it was usually not indicated, but left up to the good taste of the performer to use judiciously. As a result, it's migration from singing to fiddling is hard to track. When you add to that the various terminology differences (some persons call it vibrato, which it clearly isn't), one can see that it is the source of vexation for anyone doing a "quick lookup".

Anyway, I'll have another go tomorrow. I am fortunate to have an invaluable resource to call on!

Cheers,
Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rutra,
Thanks for the welcome. I have been reading all along, but really didn't want to get involved in what was going on, lest I lose my equable temperament

Peter,
Thanks to you, too.
I don't know, but I can find out. I think a glissando runs through a lot more notes. In all liklihood, the best example of one is the clarinet's introductory entrance to Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue". As you can see there, he "slides" through every note for about 2 octaves! I'll be back later with some info from Leopold.

Cheers,
Gurn

Yes Gurn and we have two good examples of glissandi in Beethoven - The passage in the first piano concerto 1st movement leading into the recapitulation and the infamous passage in the finale of the Waldstein sonata. Re-reading Preston's original post I think it is clear that he wasn't referring to glissandi but portamento.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-01-2006).]

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes Gurn and we have two good examples of glissandi in Beethoven - The passage in the first piano concerto 1st movement leading into the recapitulation and the infamous passage in the finale of the Waldstein sonata. Re-reading Preston's original post I think it is clear that he wasn't referring to glissandi but portamento.

Considering the simplification of that part in the Waldstein's finale, I don't think it's a glissando, rather actual octaves. I play them like written, not with two hands, nor making glissandi, the same for the similiar part in the 1st concerto.
The effect (in both instances) gets a bit ruined if one does not play those octaves because one muss, then, hold the other hand's notes by pedal, and that blurs the scales altogether.



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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Preston]

I was talking about portamento.

The reason that I wonder is because I feel that Beethoven's music must have some kind of slides and bends in it. For example, maybe Beethoven makes a flute sound like it is sliding just by changing notes, somehow.

Or maybe, he feels that music written correctly doesn't need slides, bends, etc.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-02-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
I was talking about portamento.

The reason that I wonder is because I feel that Beethoven's music must have some kind of slides and bends in it. For example, maybe Beethoven makes a flute sound like it is sliding just by changing notes, somehow.

Or maybe, he feels that music written correctly doesn't need slides, bends, etc.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-02-2006).]

I'm not sure why you think his music must have these features? It definitely was a feature of Romantic music, but I'm not convinced it would have been used extensively in the classical works of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. Maybe occasionally.

You might be interested in this review of Perlmann playing the Kreutzer sonata.
http://www.answers.com/topic/spring-...r-sonatas-rmst

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Peter, yes I agree that adding those articulations to Beethoven's music is wrong to do.

The reason I feel that he may have used a slide sound, I say may have not must, is because I hear so much music with slides in it and I feel that the orchestra might be able to achieve the slides. Such as sounds when taking a piece of glass and sliding on the guitar strings. You get that slide sound. I feel that these sounds are important and that Beethoven may have somehow put these in his music.

It is just a thought in my mind and is probably not true, but I was wondering.

Y'all gave me the information I was looking for, so thanks, and more.

Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-02-2006).]

[Preston]

Peter you said that you don't know why I feel that Beethoven would have had to have slides in his music.

You probably already know what I am about to say about the orchestra, how it is more of a very precise rough draft than completed music. This will be kind of hard to explain but I will try.

Take Pink Floyd's album "The Wall". As of now, I feel that is one of the greater achievements in the 20th century of music (I can't stand the other Pink Floyd albums. Only "The Wall" and "The Final Cut", I like.). It is full of slides and different sounds that would not be possible to get with an orchestra. But it is musically correct. Roger Waters expresses almost every feeling that he needs to perfectly, because he used other instruments than the orchestra, because the orchestra couldn't make the sounds he needed.

I feel the orchestra can capture very many different sounds and feelings and that the instruments can stand for multiple sounds and feelings, even one instrument alone. Like a flute played peacefully and a flute played darkly. Those are two totally different things and two totally different sounds. What I am saying is that you can get a lot of sounds out of the orchestra, but not every sound.

In Beethoven's music I feel that he would have wanted "all the sounds in the world", but he couldn't get them because the orchestra cannot produce them. So therefore, he couldn't get slides and bends because the orchestra doesn't really have that many instruments that slide or bend. You can use a slide on a string instrument, but you usually can't make it sound like the slide that you would want. I was wondering if Beethoven used a slide for a different reason than what I am writing about now.

I feel that Beethoven would have wanted to get different sounds, like slides, bends, things that sound really different, than what the orchestra could provide, but there was no way he could do it, because he didn't have all the sounds. Only, the sounds from the orchestra.

So I feel that the orchestra is like a very serious and precise rough draft. I say precise because a lot of classical music is so precise with articulations and things of that nature. When I say rough draft I mean music that is written for the orchestra which needs to be turned into music with the correct sounds. It would take somebody who completely understands the composer's music that they are changing to the precise sounds.

So why I feel that Beethoven wanted to use a slide in his music is because naturally he would want to use many sounds that he couldn't get.

Hope this makes sense.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-21-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Peter you said that you don't know why I feel that Beethoven would have had to have slides in his music.

You probably already know what I am about to say about the orchestra, how it is more of a very precise rough draft than completed music. This will be kind of hard to explain but I will try.

Take Pink Floyd's album "The Wall". As of now, I feel that is one of the greater achievements in the 20th century of music (I can't stand the other Pink Floyd albums. Only "The Wall" and "The Final Cut", I like.). It is full of slides and different sounds that would not be possible to get with an orchestra. But it is musically correct. Roger Waters expresses almost every feeling that he needs to perfectly, because he used other instruments than the orchestra, because the orchestra couldn't make the sounds he needed.

I feel the orchestra can capture very many different sounds and feelings and that the instruments can stand for multiple sounds and feelings, even one instrument alone. Like a flute played peacefully and a flute played darkly. Those are two totally different things and two totally different sounds. What I am saying is that you can get a lot of sounds out of the orchestra, but not every sound.

In Beethoven's music I feel that he would have wanted "all the sounds in the world", but he couldn't get them because the orchestra cannot produce them. So therefore, he couldn't get slides and bends because the orchestra doesn't really have that many instruments that slide or bend. You can use a slide on a string instrument, but you usually can't make it sound like the slide that you would want. I was wondering if Beethoven used a slide for a different reason than what I am writing about now.

I feel that Beethoven would have wanted to get different sounds, like slides, bends, things that sound really different, than what the orchestra could provide, but there was no way he could do it, because he didn't have all the sounds. Only, the sounds from the orchestra.

So I feel that the orchestra is like a very serious and precise rough draft. I say precise because a lot of classical music is so precise with articulations and things of that nature. When I say rough draft I mean music that is written for the orchestra which needs to be turned into music with the correct sounds. It would take somebody who completely understands the composer's music that they are changing to the precise sounds.

So why I feel that Beethoven wanted to use a slide in his music is because naturally he would want to use many sounds that he couldn't get.

Hope this makes sense.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-21-2006).]

Well you are right that Beethoven was always striving for something in a way unattainable - he was always pushing his piano manufacturers for more innovations for example and he made enormous demands on instrumentalists and singers. Every composer has to write for the instruments and possibilities available at the time, so doubtless had he lived a 100 years later he would have made use of the greater range available. This does not mean that we can retrospectively impose this on the music and simply assume it is what the composer wanted - there were many effects available to Beethoven that he chose not to use - for example, the pianos of his day sometimes had many pedals which were capable of producing all sorts of strange effects including percussion, but you won't find him using these in the piano sonatas. If you listen to the 5th movement of Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique you will hear the most amazing orchestral effects (including flute slides, strings playing with the wood of the bow, medieval brass chorales, tolling bells all conjuring up perfectly the scenario of cackling witches and sickly crowings of birds), that seem light years away from Beethoven, but this work was written only 4 years after Beethoven's death!

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'Man know thyself'

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Peter:
There is evidence to suggest that vibrato was used much less during the Baroque and Classical eras -

Well, this 'evidence' is mainly based on misunderstandings of the sources by musicologists who so long messed up this particular topic until non-string-players like Norrington got confused. Vibrato was not invented in the 19th century, AAMOF it's basically a baroque phenomenon and was always an integral part of the human voice - which to imitate was and is the ideal of all musicians (including Beethoven). See:
http://www.soundpostonline.com/archi...2003/page4.htm

[Peter]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
Well, this 'evidence' is mainly based on misunderstandings of the sources by musicologists who so long messed up this particular topic until non-string-players like Norrington got confused. Vibrato was not invented in the 19th century, AAMOF it's basically a baroque phenomenon and was always an integral part of the human voice - which to imitate was and is the ideal of all musicians (including Beethoven). See:
http://www.soundpostonline.com/archi...2003/page4.htm

Interesting Cetto, and I am not particularly a fan of Norrington's who certainly goes too far the other way for my taste. I have heard him talk on this issue and he is quite fanatical in his hatred of vibrato in works of the Classical and Baroque eras.

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'Man know thyself'