Did Beethoven ever use a slide on a stringed instrument.

[Preston]

I was wondering if any of you knew if Beethoven used a slide on violin, viola, cello, or double bass?

When I say slide I mean did the players have to slide their fingers while moving the bow over the string, from, say, G# to A#, or G# to D, etc.

Thanks,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Peter]

I think this is very much a Romantic innovation as is overuse of vibrato. It is a long time since my violin playing days and I can't recall what (if anything) Leopold Mozart has to say about it in his famous treatise on violin playing.

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Peter,
Wikipedia say that vibrato adds a better tone and is used to add expression and vocal-like qualities to instrumental notes. Do you think Beethoven would have liked a lot of vibrato? Did he ever say anything about this?

Anyway, on to the post. See, that's what I wonder about. Alot of composer's have used a slide on stringed instruments. I feel that Beethoven had a reason why not to use slides that much. What I wonder is why he didn't use them. Two ideas I come up with, is that somehow some of his music already sounds like it has slides in it, without actually sliding, this is something I am looking into, maybe y'all know more about it. Or that Beethoven felt that music didn't need slides. Either way, the only instruments that I know of that you slide on is the strings or guitar. There must some reason why slide instruments were never used. Anyone know about this? Hope this makes sense.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Preston:
I was wondering if any of you knew if Beethoven used a slide on violin, viola, cello, or double bass?

When I say slide I mean did the players have to slide their fingers while moving the bow over the string, from, say, G# to A#, or G# to D, etc.

Dear Preston;

In the C# minor string quartet (opus 131), you will find the only instance in which Beethoven instructs "Sul ponticello," playing close to the bridge producing a very metallic sound.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Peter,
Wikipedia say that vibrato adds a better tone and is used to add expression and vocal-like qualities to instrumental notes. Do you think Beethoven would have liked a lot of vibrato? Did he ever say anything about this?

Anyway, on to the post. See, that's what I wonder about. Alot of composer's have used a slide on stringed instruments. I feel that Beethoven had a reason why not to use slides that much. What I wonder is why he didn't use them. Two ideas I come up with, is that somehow some of his music already sounds like it has slides in it, without actually sliding, this is something I am looking into, maybe y'all know more about it. Or that Beethoven felt that music didn't need slides. Either way, the only instruments that I know of that you slide on is the strings or guitar. There must some reason why slide instruments were never used. Anyone know about this? Hope this makes sense.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-25-2006).]

There is evidence to suggest that vibrato was used much less during the Baroque and Classical eras - Roger Norrington for example hardly uses it at all in his recordings of classical symphonies. As with sliding it is a stylistic issue rather than one specific to Beethoven - I think the practice became more prevalent as the 19th century progressed - it is certainly a feature of late Romantic music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Is this an example of "Sul ponticello", http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...paganini&hl=en , you have to listen to the whole thing because I believe he does it two different times, for a long period of time, towards the end. If this is an example, then that is wild!

If I wrote music I don't think I would use vibrato that much. Primarily because it changes the pitch and sound of the note. I would imagine that you can be pretty expressive without using vibrato. Do you know if the majority of woodwinds used vibrato in the 19th and 18th centuries?

Thanks,
Preston

[Rod]

Originally posted by Preston:
Is this an example of "Sul ponticello", http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...paganini&hl=en , you have to listen to the whole thing because I believe he does it two different times, for a long period of time, towards the end. If this is an example, then that is wild!

If I wrote music I don't think I would use vibrato that much. Primarily because it changes the pitch and sound of the note. I would imagine that you can be pretty expressive without using vibrato. Do you know if the majority of woodwinds used vibrato in the 19th and 18th centuries?

Thanks,
Preston

The overuse of vibrato is the curse of modern performance, be it instrumental or vocal. Portamento sounds more subtle and acceptable on gut strings than steel. I suppose one would have to look at contemporary notations of fingering for clues. I have some text on the matter I can look into at home.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Preston:
Is this an example of "Sul ponticello", http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...paganini&hl=en , you have to listen to the whole thing because I believe he does it two different times, for a long period of time, towards the end. If this is an example, then that is wild!

If I wrote music I don't think I would use vibrato that much. Primarily because it changes the pitch and sound of the note. I would imagine that you can be pretty expressive without using vibrato. Do you know if the majority of woodwinds used vibrato in the 19th and 18th centuries?

Dear Preston;

In that Paganini piece, I think the violist played "sul ponticello" twice: Once toward the end of the slow section and once toward the end of the piece.

As for vibrato, that is generally a string instrument technique where the performer fluctuates the pitch by shaking his finger that is stopping a string. It can be done with wind instruments through breath control. I heard a recording of a rehearsal of Beethoven's overture "Coriolan" by Toscanini. He was always shouting out "sec" (dry) when he did not want the strings to play with vibrato.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Here is a link on historical playing styles with the violin. Have only had time to read a bit but there may be something useful in there, there are are few pages to the article (see the links at the bottom of the page).
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE7DD163CF931A2575BC0A966 958260&sec=&pagewanted=2

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-28-2006).]

[Preston]

Thank you, Rod.

So Beethoven does not use even one slide in his music? Very interesting. Although, to me, it would be more interesting if he had only used one or two. That is pretty amazing that y'all know that.

What about the use of other rare articulations? Like 'sul ponticello'. Unfortunately, I don't know that many articulations. If any of y'all knew that would be great.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Rod]

Originally posted by Preston:
Thank you, Rod.

So Beethoven does not use even one slide in his music?

Where does it say that? The Eroica Quartet recording uses an Edition by Ferdinand David (1810-73). This edition's fingering notes indicate frequent use of portamento. Also of interest he indicates the use of open strings even during the most expressive moments, which means there is no consideration for vibrato here. From my experience portamento can only work on the old style instruments because the effect is much more subtle, and it does work. On modern violins it sounds awful.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Preston]

I was not talking about it mentioning using a slide in the article. I was talking about the information that the forum members gave. They didn't mention that Beethoven used a slide.

From,
Preston

[Rod]

Originally posted by Preston:
I was not talking about it mentioning using a slide in the article. I was talking about the information that the forum members gave. They didn't mention that Beethoven used a slide.

From,
Preston

Well I don't think we can rely on Beethoven himself to give us all the information on the matter of portamento, we have to look into the typical practices of the time. On purely aesthetic grounds vibrato expecially should be used sparingly to say the least, as an occasional 'effect' but nothing more.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Preston,
Your use of the word "slide" has me off kilter a bit, but your description of sliding from one note to a different pitched note is equally descriptive of a "slur", which is 2 or more tied notes of different pitch. If they are played legato rather than articulated, then they would indeed constitute a "slide" as you describe it. And that being the case, certainly slurred pairs do exist in Beethoven's music.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Preston]

Gurn, I thought by using the term slide would be easily understandable. That, and I do not know that many articulations.

When I say slide I mean like a slide on a guitar. You slide your finger from the 2nd fret to the fourth fret.

I also wanted to say that I find it absolutely fascinating that Beethoven uses 'sul ponticello'. In the video where the guys are playing Paganini, it sound like distorted guitars going crazy.

Thank you for mentioning the articulations you mentioned.

From,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-30-2006).]