Goethe's indifference towards Beethoven

[PDG]

We know from his letters that Beethoven had an idolic regard for Goethe. Fair enough, but it would seem as though Goethe did not reciprocate these feelings; indeed, G did not even bother to respond to B's initial fawning letters. Beethoven even then continued to try and appease the poet, looking apparently for approval of his own musical efforts. What?! Beethoven, the great, unparalleled musical genius hoping for a nod of acknowledgement from a mere poet? The world is mad. It was apparently even more mad 200 years ago...

[Gurn Blanston]

It's interesting how time changes our perspective on the relative value of things. In their own time, Goethe was far more than a mere poet, he was an author, playwright, poet, philosopher, advisor to the King, and the general light of culture. Music at that time was of course important, but its value as an art rather than a craft was not yet fully realised.

My own impression of Goethe's take on Beethoven was that he didn't understand him. Bearing in mind that his own musician friends had already told him that Beethoven was just a bit of a musical lunatic, so he had preconceptions going in, I really think that he fully recognized the genius that was part of the "untamed personality", I believe he said "unlicked bear", actually. He just didn't attach a great value to music no matter the composer. Certainly he was not alone there, he was above all a man of his time.

Cheers,
Gurn 8^)

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited 10-18-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by PDG:
We know from his letters that Beethoven had an idolic regard for Goethe. Fair enough, but it would seem as though Goethe did not reciprocate these feelings; indeed, G did not even bother to respond to B's initial fawning letters.

Goethe (who received about a hundred letters every day) preferred to answer not at all instead of replying with phrases:

"[Solger] beklagt sich in einem derselben, daß ich ihm auf den 'Sophokles', den er mir zugesendet, nicht einmal geantwortet. Lieber Gott! – Aber wie das bei mir geht! Es ist nicht zu verwundern. Ich habe große Herren gekannt, denen man viel zusendete. Diese machten sich gewisse Formulare und Redensarten, womit sie jedes erwiderten, und so schrieben sie Briefe zu Hunderten, die sich alle gleich und alle Phrase waren. In mir aber lag dieses nie. Wenn ich nicht jemandem etwas Besonderes und Gehöriges sagen konnte, wie es in der jedesmaligen Sache lag, so schrieb ich lieber gar nicht. Oberflächliche Redensarten hielt ich für unwürdig, und so ist es denn gekommen, daß ich manchem wackern Manne, dem ich gerne geschrieben hätte, nicht antworten konnte. Sie sehen ja selbst, wie das bei mir geht und welche Zusendungen von allen Ecken und Enden täglich bei mir einlaufen, und müssen gestehen, daß dazu mehr als ein Menschenleben gehören würde, wenn man alles nur flüchtig erwidern wollte."

(Johann Peter Eckermann, Gespräche mit Goethe in den letzten Jahren seines Lebens, published by Otto Schönberger, Stuttgart: Philipp Reclam jun. 1994, pp. 229)

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
Goethe (who received about a hundred letters every day) preferred to answer not at all instead of replying with phrases:

"[Solger] beklagt sich in einem derselben, daß ich ihm auf den 'Sophokles', den er mir zugesendet, nicht einmal geantwortet. Lieber Gott! – Aber wie das bei mir geht! Es ist nicht zu verwundern. Ich habe große Herren gekannt, denen man viel zusendete. Diese machten sich gewisse Formulare und Redensarten, womit sie jedes erwiderten, und so schrieben sie Briefe zu Hunderten, die sich alle gleich und alle Phrase waren. In mir aber lag dieses nie. Wenn ich nicht jemandem etwas Besonderes und Gehöriges sagen konnte, wie es in der jedesmaligen Sache lag, so schrieb ich lieber gar nicht. Oberflächliche Redensarten hielt ich für unwürdig, und so ist es denn gekommen, daß ich manchem wackern Manne, dem ich gerne geschrieben hätte, nicht antworten konnte. Sie sehen ja selbst, wie das bei mir geht und welche Zusendungen von allen Ecken und Enden täglich bei mir einlaufen, und müssen gestehen, daß dazu mehr als ein Menschenleben gehören würde, wenn man alles nur flüchtig erwidern wollte."

(Johann Peter Eckermann, Gespräche mit Goethe in den letzten Jahren seines Lebens, published by Otto Schönberger, Stuttgart: Philipp Reclam jun. 1994, pp. 229)

Dear Cetto;

Despite the fact that I chose the name "Hofrat" on this and other forums, I do not read German. So, please kindly provide translations of the texts you quoted.

Hofrat

[Michael]

Oh, great! I can post in Irish now!!!!

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
We know from his letters that Beethoven had an idolic regard for Goethe. Fair enough, but it would seem as though Goethe did not reciprocate these feelings; indeed, G did not even bother to respond to B's initial fawning letters. Beethoven even then continued to try and appease the poet, looking apparently for approval of his own musical efforts. What?! Beethoven, the great, unparalleled musical genius hoping for a nod of acknowledgement from a mere poet? The world is mad. It was apparently even more mad 200 years ago...

This isn't quite a true representation. Goethe was greatly influenced in musical matters by his friend Zelter who was initially highly critical of Beethoven's music. However on meeting him, Goethe was impressed by Beethoven and recognised his greatness - concerning the Egmont music, Goethe wrote to Marianne Von Willemer in 1821 praising Beethoven as having 'worked wonders'.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
This isn't quite a true representation. Goethe was greatly influenced in musical matters by his friend Zelter who was initially highly critical of Beethoven's music. However on meeting him, Goethe was impressed by Beethoven and recognised his greatness - concerning the Egmont music, Goethe wrote to Marianne Von Willemer in 1821 praising Beethoven as having 'worked wonders'.

And Zelter eventually went on to become Mendelssohn's teacher and instilled a great love of Beethoven's music in him. Small world, eh?

Cheers,
Gurn 8^)

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
It's interesting how time changes our perspective on the relative value of things. In their own time, Goethe was far more than a mere poet, he was an author, playwright, poet, philosopher, advisor to the King, and the general light of culture. Music at that time was of course important, but its value as an art rather than a craft was not yet fully realised.

My own impression of Goethe's take on Beethoven was that he didn't understand him. Bearing in mind that his own musician friends had already told him that Beethoven was just a bit of a musical lunatic, so he had preconceptions going in, I really think that he fully recognized the genius that was part of the "untamed personality", I believe he said "unlicked bear", actually. He just didn't attach a great value to music no matter the composer. Certainly he was not alone there, he was above all a man of his time.

Cheers,
Gurn 8^)

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited 10-18-2006).]

Time has placed Beethoven at the pinnacle of human achievement but I don't think Goethe's standing has suffered much as a result. He is still regarded as one of the greatest world poets. Probably Shelley and Wordsworth are also not as popular today as Beethoven, but popularity is not the only measure as we all know. Goethe's achievement was and remains immense, whatever his estimate of B. may or may not have been. Genius is genius, in both cases.

The persistent fascination with the Faust legend as a symbol of the powers of science in the 19th C. was fostered by Goethe in his two great poems. This influence was felt as much in music as in literature, maybe even more so, and has echoes even today.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-20-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Cetto;

Despite the fact that I chose the name "Hofrat" on this and other forums, I do not read German. So, please kindly provide translations of the texts you quoted.

Hofrat

'Solger complains in one of his letters that I haven't replied to the 'Sophokles' he sent me. Oh my God - that's how it goes with me! It's not surprising, I knew great men who received a lot of mail. They had certain forms and phrases prepared to be able to send a reply to everybody and thus they wrote hundreds of similar letters, which were all made of phrases. But this was never to my liking. Whenever I couldn't say something special and appropriate, as it would have been necessary in a particular case, I preferred to write nothing at all. I considered superficial phrases to be unworthy and so it came that I didn't send a reply to a lot of honest people whom I really would have liked to answer. You see for yourself how it goes at my place and what kind of mail I receive everyday from all parts of the world, and you will certainly have to admit that one would need more than a lifetime, only to quickly answer every letter.'

[Preston]

I, too, feel that Goethe did not understand Beethoven. Beethoven was a hard man to understand. Being violent at times and then writing of complete peace and sanity.

What I understand is that Goethe said something like, "I find Beethoven unpleasant to be around and find it more unpleasant for him to be around himself".

Clearly Goethe saw an angry, mad, unpleasant, vulgar, etc. man, and did not see the light, joy, peace, life, caring, etc. side of Beethoven.

Kind Regards,
Preston