The Triple Concerto

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


I have an excellent version of both Cantatas on Hyperion with the Corydon orchestra and singers.

This is the best rendidtion overall at present, I have it myself. A minor flaw being a couple of the tracks have a much lower recording level than the remainder. Also included is a most beautiful late period piece (I think it's the Busslied?) that is rarely recorded, and the more popular 'Becalmed and Prosperous Voyage' (not 'calm sea' which is something quite different!) . The Leopold Cantata is underrated and is at least the equal of the Joseph. Clearly the Leopold was concieved to follow the Joseph as a 'second act'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

"Primo Amore" ???? I know a lot about B.s vocal music... but this title does not say nothing to me. Can you give me the Opus, please ?... I will find the recording of Joseph II as suggested. I also find Leopold wonderful... You are truly right . B.s vocal music is destroyed by bad singers (the same for bad pianists with is piano music...). All is very well written. You just need a good technic... and a good expression. B. had good singers (grand father, father) in his family !!! I am happy also to see the reaction of the public after I sing AH PERFIDO, the soli of the cantate, Adelaide and the two "An die Hoffnung" in concert : they all love it. The "An die Hoffnung" opus 94 is fantastic (to sing and to hear). I had a big fight with one of my students, a baritone : I suggested him to look Adelaide and "An die ferne Geliebte".... I replied to me "I do not like that at all, it is badly written and not interesting". I let students free to do what they want but such things I cannot hear. One year after he came to me with "Adelaide". He heard it in one of my concerts and decided to sing it, seeing the reaction of the audience at the end. Then he began to sing it (well, he have the material to do that properly) but the lack of feelings was there : one must "feel" B., one cannot just "learn" those natural expressions he put in his music !!!

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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
"Primo Amore" ???? I know a lot about B.s vocal music... but this title does not say nothing to me. Can you give me the Opus, please ?

'Primo amore' is WoO92. You need to know a little more! Perhaps I could do an mp3 for you if you would consider singing it. I believe B's songs are totally underrated. Singers seem to prefer Romantic rubbish. And singers universally sing triple forte throughout, especially sopranos. Can you tell me why this is so? This is certainly not music. If I wan't to hear someone screaming, I can get my AC/DC collection out, though even Brian Johnson could learn something from these big-mouthed lieder 'singers'!!

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:

...You are truly right .

You are wise and have booked your seat amongst the elite. If you are looking for more great arias to sing other than B's, you should consider Handel, for he wrote the most, and in the world of vocal composition I would rate him the best because of his collosal output of the most beautifull and exhilarating arias and cantatas etc. Please avoid the self-indulgent Romantic stuff.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
"Primo Amore" ???? I know a lot about B.s vocal music... but this title does not say nothing to me. Can you give me the Opus, please ?...

WoO92 dates according to Barry Cooper from 1790-2, whereas on this site it is listed as 1799. I'm not sure who's right! It is one of 7 works for solo voice(s) and orchestra - Do you know WoO92a - 'No, Non turbarti' scored for soprano and string orchestra?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
WoO92 dates according to Barry Cooper from 1790-2, whereas on this site it is listed as 1799. I'm not sure who's right! It is one of 7 works for solo voice(s) and orchestra - Do you know WoO92a - 'No, Non turbarti' scored for soprano and string orchestra?

I believe fairly recent research revealed the Primo amore was an earlier work than previously thought, so Cooper is the more accurate. It's quite a substantial piece, my recording lasts 14 minutes. 92a has some audience pleasing tunes in it as well and is also worthy of concert performance.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

Thank you so much ! I will find Primo Amore and see if it suits me (I always sing in original tone). Rod : if soprani are screaming a lot it is because they have not a good technic to control their voices. There is no problem for an opera singer to sing lieder without shouting, it is just a matter of beeing able to do properly the right nuances... Your are right, a lot of singers are yelling to much.
I sang already No non turbarti. It is a marvelous piece... I have the score for orchestra with the "corrections" of SALIERI.
Well, those corrections were not necessary at all....:rolleyes...

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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Thank you so much ! I will find Primo Amore and see if it suits me (I always sing in original tone). Rod : if soprani are screaming a lot it is because they have not a good technic to control their voices. There is no problem for an opera singer to sing lieder without shouting, it is just a matter of beeing able to do properly the right nuances... Your are right, a lot of singers are yelling to much.

I'm glad you agree. The issue of volume is exacerbated in my opinion by the gross overuse of vibrato. For occasionally eccentuating a note it is fine, but used continuously throughout the length of virtually every note, this too I do not regard as music! This is why I like authentic baroque pieces where one does not hear so much volume or vibrato. I have some great Handel were the sopranos immitate boy soloists, singing very lean with barely any vibrato - the sound is very pure and is especially excellent when H asks for long held notes in duet with a similar long held notes on the oboe.

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:

I sang already No non turbarti. It is a marvelous piece... I have the score for orchestra with the "corrections" of SALIERI.
Well, those corrections were not necessary at all....:rolleyes...

And yet B felt this need to continually study with, or get advice from, Salieri over a long period of time. I have often wondered why this was so.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-22-2001).]

[Claudie MICAULT]

I sing also a lot of HAENDEL. I know what you mean : it asks just a very good control of breath and of level of sound (like wind instruments....). I had once the fortune to sing both parts of contralto and soprano in the MESSIAH (with the same conductor... but not in the same production). I prefer the contralto part ( to sing it properly, as a dramatic soprano, I had to work on that seriously...) it is full of emotions. I also sang Cleopatra arias and many others. I love singing HAENDEL. More than BACH !!! Haendel wrote for good castrati, so we have to sing his music with the idea of castrati's technic, which was more developped as what is now teached in the Conservatories. B.s grandfather still had contacts with the castrati, and he must have had a very good technic.
The problem is often that singers are not "musicians" enough.... they just think about their "diamond" and want to show it !!!
B. wrote a tremendous aria in FIDELIO for the soprano, but it is well written and ask a lot of feelings. Recently I have heard a soprano here shouting like if she was singing the entrance of Walkyrie !!! Poor B.! But the critics were good... so she go on shouting.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
I sing also a lot of HAENDEL. I know what you mean...

You have good taste as a singer, let me know if you ever perform a concert in London!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

O.K., I will inform you... But I am singing more in Germany, France, and Italy in this period.
I think that if I am not a "normal" singer, it is because I began with serious studies : piano, chamber music, conducting... before to do wht is not so difficult but alway told (by singers themselves...) a tremendous experience.
I am happy to find really musicians and admirators of B. in this site....


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Claudie

[Claudie MICAULT]

You know what ??? I have just got another B.'s chocolates box today !!!
What do you think about B.s Cello sonatas (opus 5 n° 1 and 2, opus 69 and opus 102)???
I like also the variations on HAENDEL'S Judas Maccabaeus and the two sets of variations on "Die Zauberflöte"....
I have a good version by W. KEMPFF and P. FOURNIER. Do you have another one to advise ?
I feel pity not to be a cellist : the way B. treated this instrument is fantastic to me.

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Claudie

[PDG]

Hi Claudie. I agree about the Cello Sonatas. Beethoven's were the first to liberate the instrument from the piano by giving it an equal share of melodic responsibility. In fact, thinking about it, I am unaware of any similar works by either Mozart or Haydn. Whatever B's role models were, chances are that they feature bland parts for cello, with it's sound wedded to the keyboard bass throughout.

Btw, it's probably a good thing that you can't sing & eat chocolates at the same time. Although maybe you disagree!

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
You know what ??? I have just got another B.'s chocolates box today !!!
What do you think about B.s Cello sonatas (opus 5 n° 1 and 2, opus 69 and opus 102)???
I like also the variations on HAENDEL'S Judas Maccabaeus and the two sets of variations on "Die Zauberflöte"....
I have a good version by W. KEMPFF and P. FOURNIER. Do you have another one to advise ?
I feel pity not to be a cellist : the way B. treated this instrument is fantastic to me.

I agree! I absolutely adore the 'cello and can recommend the complete Beethoven 'cello sonatas(and Variations)with Raphael Wallfisch/John York EMI 7243 5 65896 2 9.

Op.102 clearly open the doors to Beethoven's late period and they were not well received by the critics.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-27-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
You know what ??? I have just got another B.'s chocolates box today !!!
What do you think about B.s Cello sonatas (opus 5 n° 1 and 2, opus 69 and opus 102)???
I like also the variations on HAENDEL'S Judas Maccabaeus and the two sets of variations on "Die Zauberflöte"....
I have a good version by W. KEMPFF and P. FOURNIER. Do you have another one to advise ?
I feel pity not to be a cellist : the way B. treated this instrument is fantastic to me.

The fact that B had no role models with the cello sonata may be the reason why they are all so boldly inventive and original. They're the first and still the best of their kind.

My first set had Paul Tortellier on the cello (EMI), I recall liking this set a lot but I can't remember what it sounded like now. These days I have a great recordings of op5 by Bylsma (vc) and Bilson (fp), and of op69 and 102 by a pair of Scandinavians whose names are unpronounceable and beyond my memory, but the label is Finlandia (also period instruments) and some may recall I posted from this disk the Fugato of op102/2 here as an mp3.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

These days I have a great recordings of op5 by Bylsma (vc) and Bilson (fp), and of op69 and 102 by a pair of Scandinavians whose names are unpronounceable and beyond my memory, but the label is Finlandia (also period instruments) and some may recall I posted from this disk the Fugato of op102/2 here as an mp3.

I think the Scandinavians are Karttunen/Hakkila

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'Man know thyself'