What Are You Listening To Now?

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Hofrat,

Wow ! You must have been so happy !

I've never actually seen the score of 'Fidelio'. I want to add something special (and only by Beethoven) for a scene in a screenplay I am working on which itself starts about a minute or so in to the screenplay. (The time when the titles start rolling). I've thought of the little march from Fidelio or possibly something from the last movement of the Eroica. The march seems somehow better. (It will show an 18th century sailing ship heading for the horizon on its way to France from Dover in England - carrying on board Thomas Paine - who has just escaped arrest at Dover port by literally minutes). The little Fidelio march seems great because of its radiant optimism - but I wonder. Would like to see the score. Perhaps I can find it somehow.

Dear Robert;

Yes, it was a thrilling find.

The march from Fidelio is a great idea. I could send a piano reduction of it to you if you wish. Or I could try to photocopy the march from the full score.

By the way, there is a discarded march from from Fidelio. I am refering to WoO 2b "Introduction to Act II." I also have the score to this if you are interested. It has a darker character than the "official" march.


Hofrat

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

Thank you. I am sure I can find a full score of Fidelio here but thank you so much anyway. And thanks for telling me of another Fidelio march. I'd love to hear it even if it's not really suitable.

So Beethoven took a bold step in using the one we all know. What a decision ! Especially since the two are different in mood.

There seem to be no end of great things to discover about this wonderful opera 'Fidelio' and I am only just starting to learn about it.

Regards

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Hofrat,

Thank you. I am sure I can find a full score of Fidelio here but thank you so much anyway. And thanks for telling me of another Fidelio march. I'd love to hear it even if it's not really suitable.

So Beethoven took a bold step in using the one we all know. What a decision ! Especially since the two are different in mood.

There seem to be no end of great things to discover about this wonderful opera 'Fidelio' and I am only just starting to learn about it.

Dear Robert;

Gardiner actually uses the darker WoO 2b march in his recording of Beethoven's *Leonore*.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Robert;

Gardiner actually uses the darker WoO 2b march in his recording of Beethoven's *Leonore*.


Hofrat

No matter, Gardiner's recording is a mockery of the opera.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Athea:
I'm listening to Beethoven's sonata Op.111 for piano...

Me too, now. But why no middle movement? Hhmmmmm.....

[robert newman]

Hi Rod,

Is there any particular recording you like of the March in Fidelio ? It's so concise. Everything about it is great, it seems. But why did Beethoven choose this particular version rather than the other ? Perhaps he was trying to run a thread of hope through the opera and finally decided this amazing little march was more appropriate than his first idea. Whatever the story I'm glad he did.

[Sorrano]

This evening caught a dance suite converted from piano to orchestra by Kodaly (sorry, cannot remember the name of the work, but it was quite nice!) Kodaly is another of those much underrated composers of the 19th and 20th Centuries.

[Athea]

Originally posted by PDG:
Me too, now. But why no middle movement? Hhmmmmm.....

Maybe a short moment of silence between movements 1 and 2 can't be considered as long enough? Who knows, what the Master meant...

[Athea]

Beethoven's Emperor Concerto - simply great! I love the 2nd movement...

[This message has been edited by Athea (edited 08-03-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by PDG:
Me too, now. But why no middle movement? Hhmmmmm.....

One of the traits that contributed to Beethoven's greatness was his keen sense of the wholeness of the work. Beethoven often rejected movements because they did not fit the work as a whole. An excellent example of this is his 6th sonata for piano and violin in A opus 30/1. Beethoven originally wrote a wild tarantella for its finale, but it did not fit the gentle nature of the previous movements. So he wrote a different finale for the sonata. The tarantella later became the finale of the "Kreutzer" sonata where it fit much better. Another example can be found in the "Waldstein" sonata. The original middle movement was the "Andante Favori" in F. Again, Beethoven's keen sense of the whole told him that this massive movement did not fit well between the 1st and 3rd movements. Beethoven discarded it and inserted the much shorter and certainly much better fitting "Introduction." Ask yourselves why there is no scherzo in the "Ghost" trio. Once again we have to think like Beethoven. The huge "Largo assai" (which is the slowest music Beethoven ever wrote) is a difficult movement to balance. The "whole" trio becomes awkward in the format of a four movement piece. But in the framework of a three movement piece, it fits like a glove.

So my answer to the question why no slow movement in opus 111 is this: No slow movement would fit the "wholeness" of the composition.


Hofrat

[Athea]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
So my answer to the question why no slow movement in opus 111 is this: No slow movement would fit the "wholeness" of the composition.

I think you're right. I can’t imagine myself listening to the sonata with anything else. There isn't important a number of movements simply because this piece is just perfect with its two movements and this is the whole fact.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Hi Rod,

Is there any particular recording you like of the March in Fidelio ? It's so concise. Everything about it is great, it seems. But why did Beethoven choose this particular version rather than the other ? Perhaps he was trying to run a thread of hope through the opera and finally decided this amazing little march was more appropriate than his first idea. Whatever the story I'm glad he did.

It's a good question Rob. I've heard it asked before why the march is not more menacing, considering it is the evil Pizarro's troops doing the marching. Perhaps it is not the soldiers but only Pizarro who is the bad guy. Also, as it always the case with Beethoven, the tone of the march has to be considered in light of the bigger music structure. Either way it is probably the most peculiar sounding march you will hear, but it's great!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-03-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
One of the traits that contributed to Beethoven's greatness was his keen sense of the wholeness of the work. Beethoven often rejected movements because they did not fit the work as a whole. An excellent example of this is his 6th sonata for piano and violin in A opus 30/1. Beethoven originally wrote a wild tarantella for its finale, but it did not fit the gentle nature of the previous movements. So he wrote a different finale for the sonata. The tarantella later became the finale of the "Kreutzer" sonata where it fit much better. Another example can be found in the "Waldstein" sonata. The original middle movement was the "Andante Favori" in F. Again, Beethoven's keen sense of the whole told him that this massive movement did not fit well between the 1st and 3rd movements. Beethoven discarded it and inserted the much shorter and certainly much better fitting "Introduction." Ask yourselves why there is no scherzo in the "Ghost" trio. Once again we have to think like Beethoven. The huge "Largo assai" (which is the slowest music Beethoven ever wrote) is a difficult movement to balance. The "whole" trio becomes awkward in the format of a four movement piece. But in the framework of a three movement piece, it fits like a glove.

So my answer to the question why no slow movement in opus 111 is this: No slow movement would fit the "wholeness" of the composition.


Hofrat

I'm not saying there could have been a (another!) slow movement, rather just a "middle" movement. Of course you're right about the "completeness" of his major works as they were intended to stand, but Op.111 is by far his most substantial work with just two movements. The other works you mention all have at least three.

[PDG]

[quote]Originally posted by Athea:

I think you're right. I can’t imagine myself listening to the sonata with anything else. There isn't important a number of movements simply because this piece is just perfect with its two movements and this is the whole fact.

I agree, Athea. The two movements are equally colossal, yet devastatingly different. It's a similar case with the Moonlight Sonata, but of course, here Beethoven split the Twin Peaks with a devilish scherzo!! One guess at a reason for omitting a diversion in Op.111 is that he wanted to create maximum dramatic effect on our senses by offering instant major-key relief after the minor-key turbulance.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by PDG:
I'm not saying there could have been a (another!) slow movement, rather just a "middle" movement. Of course you're right about the "completeness" of his major works as they were intended to stand, but Op.111 is by far his most substantial work with just two movements. The other works you mention all have at least three.

Dear PDG;

There is nothing wrong with a two movement sonata. Beethoven composed them earlier in his career. We have his piano sonatas opus 49/1, opus 49/2, and opus 54. And we have his piano and 'cello sonatas opus 5/1 and opus 5/2. All of these works are two movements and totally complete.


Hofrat