'Copying Beethoven'

[Peter]

Originally posted by srivele:

I should mention that Variety recently reported that Bruce Beresford (a director whose work I admire) is going to do a film about Rachmaninov.

That's interesting, wasn't there one by Tony Palmer?

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by srivele:


However, what matters most to me is whether the audience will gain an understanding of Beethoven's personal and artistic struggles, an appreciation for the music, and a sense of the spiritual experience which he tried to voice through the late works. Because as I have said here before, I consider that the late piano sonatas and the late quartets are the greatest artistic achievement of Western civilization, and I hope that a wider audience will come, through the film, to breathe, even for a moment, that rareified air.
Someone has said here that he thinks I strove for this film out of love for Beethoven's music. That is true. I love the music, have done so since I was thirteen, and cannot imagine my life without it. It has enriched my life, refreshed my spirit in times when I was depressed or troubled, and, I think, brought me to a deeper understanding of the spiritual nature of man, and the immanence of god in life. If an audience takes something of that away from the film, I will feel it has succeeded, no matter how well or poorly it does at the box office.

I agree, well said! Hopefully the audience will come away with an understanding of the man's tribulations and joyous triumphant moments as well. Also, of course, an appreciation of his great music.


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Beyond Within]

As long as you have crafted a great movie, I see no reason to criticize; despite historical liberties taken, a work of art must be judged by the standards of its medium. If this were declared a documentary, then all attacks related to accuracy would be valid; but this was never stated.

That being said, I just hope it lives up to the same standards that make Scarface, The Browning Version, Citizen Kane, Palindromes, M, Harakiri, and The Godfather all masterpieces.

However, I would de-emphasize the aim to promote Beethoven's music, which rings of (noble) propaganda, and simply embrace the composer as a vehicle for excellent cinema. Of course, it would be in bad taste to slander Beethoven, no matter how great the movie, but that clearly is not a problem here, in spite of any supposed inaccuracies. As long as the "inaccuracies" do not detract from the quality of the picture as a picture; do not seem arbitrary or contrived; and appear entirely plausible and fluidly integrated by the structure of the film, I applaud them.

If the insertion of the female copyist was made simply to attract a broader audience, then that action must be condemned as an artistic copout. I would rather have my projects forever collecting dust, than prostitute myself to an undiscriminating crowd.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-16-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
As long as you have crafted a great movie, I see no reason to criticize; despite historical liberties taken, a work of art must be judged by the standards of its medium. If this were declared a documentary, then all attacks related to accuracy would be valid; but this was never stated.

That being said, I just hope it lives up to the same standards that make Scarface, The Browning Version, Citizen Kane, Palindromes, M, Harakiri, and The Godfather all masterpieces.

However, I would de-emphasize the aim to promote Beethoven's music, which rings of (noble) propaganda, and simply embrace the composer as a vehicle for excellent cinema. Of course, it would be in bad taste to slander Beethoven, no matter how great the movie, but that clearly is not a problem here, in spite of any supposed inaccuracies. As long as the "inaccuracies" do not detract from the quality of the picture as a picture; do not seem arbitrary or contrived; and appear entirely plausible and fluidly integrated by the structure of the film, I applaud them.

If the insertion of the female copyist was made simply to attract a broader audience, then that action must be condemned as an artistic copout. I would rather have my projects forever collecting dust, than prostitute myself to an undiscriminating crowd.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-16-2006).]

However, if the insertion of the fictional copyist is to present some ideas from an external viewpoint, howbeit fictional, then there are some great benefits to be reaped for the audience.

[terry]

[B] The film was test screened recently in San Diego, and I am happy to report that it received very high marks.

Ehat good news!! I'm really happy!Thank you for this film, it sounds great,and don't care about critics, not now. Our moment is coming! God knows when I can see it..!!!Why should it be different from USA to EUROPE? What am I missing furthermore?
I LOVE THIS SITE AND THIS FORUM! And there are no ads inside! Great! Thanks all!

[Beyond Within]

However, if the insertion of the fictional copyist is to present some ideas from an external viewpoint, howbeit fictional, then there are some great benefits to be reaped for the audience.
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Yes, if the chief aim were to present otherwise impossible perspectives and thus increase the quality of the film, then audience favor, as a byproduct, would be acceptable. However, in this circumstance, the audience is merely pleased by what pleased the creator -- which is the ideal result; however, if the overall vision is compromised for the sake of an audience, that action is base.

It seemed the female copyist was inserted because a specialized movie, only Beethoven fanatics could appreciate, wouldn't attract a broader audience; however, a great story would still be told to this limited crowd without such an extreme distortion of history.

I think if the screenwriters and director were clever enough, such an accurate movie revealing the spiritual side of Beethoven would be possible; clearly, the copyist is a creative crutch. Somehow the movie Pie, almost entirely focused on the mind of one individual, was a box-office success. Why? Because the screenwriter and director were clever enough for the execution.

I have not condemned the hypothetical final product here, but merely stated that a film could achieve the aims of Copying Beethoven without such a radical alteration of fact.

[Beyond Within]

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0729151/

Awesome. So you worked on the Nixon script with Oliver Stone? That was a great movie. Well, hopefully this work lives up to that!

Although, you also worked on Ali, which was not exactly anywhere close to great.

[srivele]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
However, if the insertion of the fictional copyist is to present some ideas from an external viewpoint, howbeit fictional, then there are some great benefits to be reaped for the audience.

The dramatic problem we faced in writing a film about the late Beethoven was: Who does he talk to? He had few friends, and he was almost entirely deaf. He led an intense inner life, but was largely cut off from the outside world. So, as we say in the Biz: Where do you put the camera? We converted the two young men whom Schlemmer trained to read Beethoven's work into one young woman in order to give the film a point of view, and to give the audience members someone from outside Beethoven's circle with whom they could identify, and who would lead them into his inner world. It is a dramatic license, but not one of such radical departure that it defies the laws of historical drama. (If we had convereted Beethoven into a woman, or argued that he was not deaf, or that he was gay, or that someone else actually wrote his works, then we would be beyond the pale.) What we have done is to synthesize a dramatic character in order to facilitate the storytelling.

As dramatists, that is what we do - we invent ways of telling stories that we feel ought to be told. We provide the audience with a point of view, we try to get at the truth of the subject by taking a creative approach to it. History gives us the facts, fiction gives us the truth. I believe that utterly.

[srivele]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0729151/

Awesome. So you worked on the Nixon script with Oliver Stone? That was a great movie. Well, hopefully this work lives up to that!

Although, you also worked on Ali, which was not exactly anywhere close to great.

Thank you for the kinds words. I, too, was sorely disappointed in 'Ali,' which Michael Mann decided to turn into something as small and unattractive as he is himself. We wrote a script about a man in search of the will of God. He told us, quite cooly, that he was not interested in Ali's spiritual struggle - he saw him entirely as a sociological phenomenon. He then fired us and rewrote our script - destroyed it actually - with the result that you saw.

[srivele]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
As long as you have crafted a great movie,
However, I would de-emphasize the aim to promote Beethoven's music, which rings of (noble) propaganda, and simply embrace the composer as a vehicle for excellent cinema. Of course, it would be in bad taste to slander Beethoven, no matter how great the movie, but that clearly is not a problem here, in spite of any supposed inaccuracies. As long as the "inaccuracies" do not detract from the quality of the picture as a picture; do not seem arbitrary or contrived; and appear entirely plausible and fluidly integrated by the structure of the film, I applaud them.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-16-2006).]

Thank you for your fair-minded approach to the project. I hope it does not disappoint you. I would remark only that my comments about the music are not propaganda (noble or otherwise) but my primary reason for writing and producing the film. I really am indifferent to how it does commerically, except to the extent that its success (if it has success) will reflect the fact that a wide audience has heard and responded to the music. It is the music that matters to me, and the audience's response to our portrait of the man, who has been to me a hero since my youth. I hope they will find that portrait truthful and moving.

[srivele]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
However, if the insertion of the fictional copyist is to present some ideas from an external viewpoint, howbeit fictional, then there are some great benefits to be reaped for the audience.

You cite some interesting films in your comments. The film, 'Pi' by Darren Aronofsky, was, of course, entirely fictional, an imagining of the director-actor, unconstrained by any historical considerations. I watched it once in the company of a math professor from Cal Tech, who laughed straight through, declaring that the mathmatical concepts in it were not to be taken seriously. In our film, I hope that, at the very least, we got the music right.

[Peter]

Originally posted by srivele:
Thank you for your fair-minded approach to the project. I hope it does not disappoint you. I would remark only that my comments about the music are not propaganda (noble or otherwise) but my primary reason for writing and producing the film. I really am indifferent to how it does commerically, except to the extent that its success (if it has success) will reflect the fact that a wide audience has heard and responded to the music. It is the music that matters to me, and the audience's response to our portrait of the man, who has been to me a hero since my youth. I hope they will find that portrait truthful and moving.

I think you are to be congratulated on tackling such a tricky subject - I understand your reasons for introducing a fictional character as it is the higher goal of introducing many people to Beethoven's sublime music that really matters.

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'Man know thyself'

[sjwenger]

The dramatic problem we faced in writing a film about the late Beethoven was: Who does he talk to? He had few friends, and he was almost entirely deaf. He led an intense inner life, but was largely cut off from the outside world. So, as we say in the Biz: Where do you put the camera? We converted the two young men whom Schlemmer trained to read Beethoven's work into one young woman in order to give the film a point of view, and to give the audience members someone from outside Beethoven's circle with whom they could identify, and who would lead them into his inner world. It is a dramatic license, but not one of such radical departure that it defies the laws of historical drama. (If we had convereted Beethoven into a woman, or argued that he was not deaf, or that he was gay, or that someone else actually wrote his works, then we would be beyond the pale.) What we have done is to synthesize a dramatic character in order to facilitate the storytelling.

As dramatists, that is what we do - we invent ways of telling stories that we feel ought to be told. We provide the audience with a point of view, we try to get at the truth of the subject by taking a creative approach to it. History gives us the facts, fiction gives us the truth. I believe that utterly.

I am so glad you posted this. It's a terrific insight for the non-movie-professional into how a movie can take shape, and it will greatly enhance my enjoyment of a film I so much look forward to! Along the same lines, I enjoyed William Goldman's books about movie-making.
- Susan

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To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
susanwenger@yahoo.com

To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

[sjwenger]

Question for srivele:

Do you anticipate any effect on the movie's reception as a result of the hoopla over "The Da Vinci Code" being a fictional account of a controversial subject, as your movie injects a fictional character into Beethoven's life? A negative backlash? A positive publicity boom?

------------------
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
susanwenger@yahoo.com

To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

[Beyond Within]

You cite some interesting films in your comments. The film, 'Pi' by Darren Aronofsky, was, of course, entirely fictional, an imagining of the director-actor, unconstrained by any historical considerations. I watched it once in the company of a math professor from Cal Tech, who laughed straight through, declaring that the mathematical concepts in it were not to be taken seriously. In our film, I hope that, at the very least, we got the music right.
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I cited Pi as an example of powerful film narrative delivered almost exclusively from an internal perspective; to show the infinite potentiality such a magnified and seemingly limited angle can possess: not as a faithful transcription of reality. Here, I addressed the matter of perspective, and not the matter of accuracy. Now, if I had wished to do that, I would have cited the modern Sci-fi classic, Cube, which was supposed to be mathematically sound in all its calculations, within, of course, an entirely fictional design. In any case, I criticized the insertion of the copyist as a compromise in the face of structure, and not in the face of history. I also did not question the technical accuracy (music) of the film, which was what you distilled from Pi.

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Who does he talk to? He had few friends, and he was almost entirely deaf. He led an intense inner life, but was largely cut off from the outside world. So, as we say in the Biz: Where do you put the camera?
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I think you approached the material with an overly conventional attitude: he could, in his mind, speak to himself. Indeed, internal psychological drama has been attempted more often in literature, like in Moby Dick with Melville's intensive exploration; but I think it would be a noble enterprise to extend this exploration, more than it is now, to film. In fact, this newer medium may have an advantage, enabling the director to convey messages with muted imagery: perhaps you could fuse ponderous visions with Beethoven in a way that clearly evokes his mental state? I think this would be wondrous. Such psychological journeys have been attempted successfully in film, as Pi demonstrated, and have even become classics of the field, like the universally acclaimed Italian masterpiece, 8 ½. Japanese horror directors seem to have a deeper and more active interest in the visual possibilities of the format, especially as applied to the first person perspective and dream states, which the beautiful – perhaps the greatest visual journey I have experienced -- short film, Box, exemplifies. Here, you not only have the complication of an entirely psychological tale, but a tale told in the unified minds of Siamese twins! This movie had almost no dialogue or sound; and so potent was this decision, that the one eerie musical phrase played had a profounder impact than all the intensive orchestration of Star Wars.

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Thank you for the kinds words. I, too, was sorely disappointed in 'Ali,' which Michael Mann decided to turn into something as small and unattractive as he is himself. We wrote a script about a man in search of the will of God. He told us, quite coolly, that he was not interested in Ali's spiritual struggle - he saw him entirely as a sociological phenomenon. He then fired us and rewrote our script - destroyed it actually - with the result that you saw.
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I have no experience with Michael Mann in person, but I wouldn't dismiss him as a director. After all, he did make the brilliant Collateral recently. Have you seen this picture?