'Copying Beethoven'

[srivele]

Originally posted by Euan Mackinnon:
Joy

Thanks for the reference. The film sounds bloody (to use an old-fashioned English word)! Worse even than Immortal Beloved. Typical modern media trash, in fact. One day - ONE day - someone will make a film of Beethoven (or Mozart, Schubert, etc) that will stick to the facts. The truth will have a far, far greater impact than this sort of romantic clap-trap.

Euan

I am afraid I don't recall your name on any of the invitation lists for any of the screenings of the film. Pardon my faulty memory, since, given the firmness of your judgement, I cannot help but think that you must have seen it, since no one sophisticated enough to appreciate Beethoven would make such damning declarations as you have on the basis of no direct evidence at all.

[robert newman]

Well, I will watch the film and I will definitely hope to get hold of a copy of the director's cut too.

Robert

[Euan Mackinnon]

Originally posted by srivele:

I am afraid I don't recall your name on any of the invitation lists for any of the screenings of the film. Pardon my faulty memory, since, given the firmness of your judgement, I cannot help but think that you must have seen it, since no one sophisticated enough to appreciate Beethoven would make such damning declarations as you have on the basis of no direct evidence at all.

Well I won't counter sarcasm with sarcasm. I will simply point out that the counter to your posting lies in the 'grammar' of mine.

I wrote: "The film sounds bloody". Note: 'sounds' - clearly referring to a judgment made on the basis of the web site to which Joy referred us in an earlier posting. I hope that sets your mind at rest.

Euan

[Joy]

I didn't think that website was in anyway damning to the film. It had a nice synposis of the movie and some pretty terrific pictures of Ed Harris and Diane Kruger in costume?! It's all in the way you look at it. I, for one, can't wait to see the film. For all I've heard on the subject and all the work put into it, it sounds like it's a great movie!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Michael]

Originally posted by Peter:
There has been one - the dire 'Song without end' starring Dirk Bogarde in what he himself regarded as a lamentable production!

Is that the one with lines like: "Hya, Mendelssohn!" ? There is such a movie, trust me!
The best "fictional" Beethoven I have ever seen was shown on the BBC last year, in three hour-long programmes. It doesn't qualify as a movie - it was a drama-documentary - but it pushed all the right buttons. The "Missa Solemnis" and the "Grosse Fugue" sections were really innovative. I keep hoping it comes out on DVD as the similar "Eroica" documentary did.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
Is that the one with lines like: "Hya, Mendelssohn!" ? There is such a movie, trust me!

That's the one Michael - 'and how's your buddy Schubert?'

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:


I think the classical music snobs (not saying you guys are) need to lighten up and not take it so personally. We should be glad they're even doing a movie about Beethoven.

Well perhaps I'm one of those snobs because I don't subscribe to the 'we should be grateful for anything' idea. There have been ludicrous films made such as 'Song without end' and Ken Russell's 'Mahler'. However Amadeus (despite its many liberties), shows how it can be done well and I am willing to give this new film the benefit of the doubt despite my reservations concerning historical accuracy as Mr.Rivele has undoubtedly made this film out of genuine love for Beethoven's music.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[srivele]

Originally posted by Euan Mackinnon:

Well I won't counter sarcasm with sarcasm. I will simply point out that the counter to your posting lies in the 'grammar' of mine.

I wrote: "The film sounds bloody". Note: 'sounds' - clearly referring to a judgment made on the basis of the web site to which Joy referred us in an earlier posting. I hope that sets your mind at rest.

Euan

I also noted that you referred to the film as "this sort of romantic clap-trap" and offered the opinion that it would "pay scant regard to any factual reality." Those are judgements, made without having seen the film or read the script. Every student in high school learns that you never comment on or critique something you have not read or seen.

We have spent nine years on and off trying to bring this story to the screen, and the past three years intensively doing so. Now try to imagine this: At your place of employment, you spend years laboring at a project which, when it is nearly finished, someone dismisses out of hand on the basis of hearsay without even bothering to find out what it is. Sarcasm? I am furious at this kind of thinking. I can accept criticism from those who know my work, have thought about it and give their reasons for their views. But to have it critiqued in advance by someone who knows nothing about the project except what he has read on the Internet is enraging.

We have paid attention to historical facts, but, as I have said from the beginning, we invented the female copyist (instead of the two young male copyists) in order to be able to tell the story of Beethoven's final years.
There is no romantic clap-trap in the film; rather there is, I think, a rather searching exploration of genius, loneliness and the striving for spiritual experience - a direct experience of the divine. We also wanted to bring the late music, especially the late quartets, to as wide an audience as possible - an audience that might never otherwise hear them - and to try to indicate why they were written and why they are important. We invented a device to do this; it is a common technique of historical drama. But you would not know that from reading the Internet.

Now, this is what we tried to accomplish through our film. If I fail in that, then you may tell me so, and tell me why, and I will listen to what you say. But I will wait until I have heard it before I form a judgement. That it seems to me, is what reasonable, fair-minded people do.

[robert newman]

All I know of this film 'Copying Beethoven' (mostly through this forum) suggests it's a film with the potential to be a success in very many ways. The sheer directness of Beethoven and his music (to say nothing of the man's character) have a relevance to our own times quite different from that of, say, Mozart. It would not surprise me if this film is about to be a major success, and this for many good reasons.

What a tremendous achievement to have persevered in its production. To have focused on the late quartets is a very bold thing and is itself worthy of applause by any film-going music lover. I think this film is going to be a major success in virtually all respects.

The question,'Who could possibly follow Mozart ?' was answered by 'Ludwig van Beethoven'. And to the question, 'What could possibly follow the film 'Amadeus' ?', may well be the film 'Copying Beethoven'. That would be great.

[Euan Mackinnon]

Stephen

I am perfectly happy to debate with you the content of and reasoning behind my comments on ‘your’ film, but there are two caveats.

The first is that you do me the courtesy of quoting me in context, of which more in a moment.

The second concerns the nature of (drawbacks of) communication in this medium (the Internet, Forums, e-mails, etc) where there is widespread acceptance, often unstated, that ‘less is more’.

In short, brevity rules, and it rules out an immediate and full presentation of my case.

So, given that ‘brevity rules’, I will simply outline my case and leave it to other members, or to you, to decide whether or not it should be developed.

First, though, context and courtesy.

You wrote:

I also noted that you referred to the film as "this sort of romantic clap-trap" and offered the opinion that it would "pay scant regard to any factual reality." Those are judgements, made without having seen the film or read the script

No, Stephen, on the second point I wrote that:

I expect the whole thing will be centred on the entirely fictitious romance between Beethoven and this female […] and will pay scant regard to any factual reality

Note: the key word ‘expect’.

In the outline below you will see the heading ‘Experience’ and this would, in part and if developed, tell you why I ‘expect’ the outcome I describe, evidence for an ‘expectation’ that requires neither seeing the film nor reading the script.

As to your first criticism of my comment "this sort of romantic clap-trap", let me simply quote from the synopsis on http://www.myriadpictures.com/film.php?film=63

Desperate, Anna accepts her longtime paramour, Martin’s, proposal of marriage. Beethoven storms after her - she must choose between Martin and him. Anna tries to flee Vienna but cannot; her destiny is linked to Beethoven’s. She returns to finish their work and finds him dying. From his dictation she copies the last of the quartets. His work on earth done, he frees her to become what he tells her she was born to be – a composer.

I have no reservation in describing that as “romantic clap-trap"; almost every sentence drips with it.

Obviously I fully understand that you would almost certainly not have raised the money to make the film without inserting “romantic clap-trap" like that into your sales pitch. But that reason, while valid in its own terms, does not in any way invalidate my description set in the context of this forum.

However, it does lead me to the first major element, and probably the most telling one, in my outline case to which I referred above, a case that has three main components:

1. Money and Markets

2. Experience (of earlier films featuring the ‘lives’ of well-known composers).

3. Cultural differences.

As I say, I will develop any/all of these arguments if members, or you, wish me to but given that I have already violated the ‘brevity rules’ rule in this posting, I will stop there.

Euan

[srivele]

Originally posted by Euan Mackinnon:
Stephen

I am perfectly happy to debate with you the content of and reasoning behind my comments on ‘your’ film, but there are two caveats.

The first is that you do me the courtesy of quoting me in context, of which more in a moment.

The second concerns the nature of (drawbacks of) communication in this medium (the Internet, Forums, e-mails, etc) where there is widespread acceptance, often unstated, that ‘less is more’.

In short, brevity rules, and it rules out an immediate and full presentation of my case.

So, given that ‘brevity rules’, I will simply outline my case and leave it to other members, or to you, to decide whether or not it should be developed.

First, though, context and courtesy.

You wrote:

I also noted that you referred to the film as "this sort of romantic clap-trap" and offered the opinion that it would "pay scant regard to any factual reality." Those are judgements, made without having seen the film or read the script

No, Stephen, on the second point I wrote that:

I expect the whole thing will be centred on the entirely fictitious romance between Beethoven and this female […] and will pay scant regard to any factual reality

Note: the key word ‘expect’.

In the outline below you will see the heading ‘Experience’ and this would, in part and if developed, tell you why I ‘expect’ the outcome I describe, evidence for an ‘expectation’ that requires neither seeing the film nor reading the script.

As to your first criticism of my comment "this sort of romantic clap-trap", let me simply quote from the synopsis on http://www.myriadpictures.com/film.php?film=63

Desperate, Anna accepts her longtime paramour, Martin’s, proposal of marriage. Beethoven storms after her - she must choose between Martin and him. Anna tries to flee Vienna but cannot; her destiny is linked to Beethoven’s. She returns to finish their work and finds him dying. From his dictation she copies the last of the quartets. His work on earth done, he frees her to become what he tells her she was born to be – a composer.

I have no reservation in describing that as “romantic clap-trap"; almost every sentence drips with it.

Obviously I fully understand that you would almost certainly not have raised the money to make the film without inserting “romantic clap-trap" like that into your sales pitch. But that reason, while valid in its own terms, does not in any way invalidate my description set in the context of this forum.

However, it does lead me to the first major element, and probably the most telling one, in my outline case to which I referred above, a case that has three main components:

1. Money and Markets

2. Experience (of earlier films featuring the ‘lives’ of well-known composers).

3. Cultural differences.

As I say, I will develop any/all of these arguments if members, or you, wish me to but given that I have already violated the ‘brevity rules’ rule in this posting, I will stop there.

Euan

The reply to all of your rationalizations is very simple: Have you seen the film or read the script?
You have not, and so, you should not be commenting on it. Period, end of discussion. No fair-minded person critiques, comments on or forms judgements about a film he has not seen or a book he has not read. You can try to hide behind 'grammar' as you call it (actually it is diction, that is, word choice), but I have been a professional writer for thirty years and know something about such matters. You formed judgements based on one Internet web site; you referred to our film as "bloody," "clap-trap," "trash" and opined that it probably ignored historical facts. That was your language, not mine. These were harsh, insulting judgements published by you in a complete absence of facts. I find it difficult to believe that you are actually trying to defend impressions you formed on the basis of an anonymous text the accuracy of which you did not bother to check. In any case, whatever you think you are doing, you are not discussing our film.
You did not look at the site and wonder whether it might be accurate or, so far as I know, make any effort to learn if it was. You could have looked farther, or even posed questions to me on this site. Instead, you chose to malign the film in a public forum. There is no 'reasoning' behind your comments to be debated.
You assumed that the film is what the site says about it, and in that you were mistaken. The scenes you refer to are not even in the film. You based your impression of the film on entirely false information. Why don't you just admit that you were hasty in reacting to the film, and that you relied for your reaction on untried information (which, in fact, was faulty information)?
The film will succeed or fail on its own merits, and as I have come to know the members of this site, I expect that they will comment on it vocally and vigorously AFTER they have seen it. I look forward to that discussion. This one is simply nonsense.

[This message has been edited by srivele (edited 05-12-2006).]

[srivele]

Originally posted by robert newman:

All I know of this film 'Copying Beethoven' (mostly through this forum) suggests it's a film with the potential to be a success in very many ways. The sheer directness of Beethoven and his music (to say nothing of the man's character) have a relevance to our own times quite different from that of, say, Mozart. It would not surprise me if this film is about to be a major success, and this for many good reasons.

What a tremendous achievement to have persevered in its production. To have focused on the late quartets is a very bold thing and is itself worthy of applause by any film-going music lover. I think this film is going to be a major success in virtually all respects.

The question,'Who could possibly follow Mozart ?' was answered by 'Ludwig van Beethoven'. And to the question, 'What could possibly follow the film 'Amadeus' ?', may well be the film 'Copying Beethoven'. That would be great.

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I can only hope that the finished film does not disappoint you. It has, perhaps, some flaws, but every film does; there are points about the execution of the material with which I disagreed with the director, but those always occur. All that I can tell you at this point is that the audience members with whom I saw the latest cut of the film (which is, I think, the final North American cut; the European cut will be different) were very moved, and they appeared, from my conversations with them, to have grasped the essential values and ideas that we intended to convey through the script.
I think the production values are very high for a film of such a modest budget, Ed Harris' performance is astonishing in its depth, clarity, complexity and honesty, and Diane Kruger's is very touching and sincere.
However, what matters most to me is whether the audience will gain an understanding of Beethoven's personal and artistic struggles, an appreciation for the music, and a sense of the spiritual experience which he tried to voice through the late works. Because as I have said here before, I consider that the late piano sonatas and the late quartets are the greatest artistic achievement of Western civilization, and I hope that a wider audience will come, through the film, to breathe, even for a moment, that rareified air.
Someone has said here that he thinks I strove for this film out of love for Beethoven's music. That is true. I love the music, have done so since I was thirteen, and cannot imagine my life without it. It has enriched my life, refreshed my spirit in times when I was depressed or troubled, and, I think, brought me to a deeper understanding of the spiritual nature of man, and the immanence of god in life. If an audience takes something of that away from the film, I will feel it has succeeded, no matter how well or poorly it does at the box office.

[srivele]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
Is the soundtrack for the movie available on CD (yet)?

The soundtrack should be available some time after the film is released. Unfortunately I cannot tell you at this point when that will be. But as soon as I know, I will post the information.

[Peter]

Gentlemen please, there is no need to descend into a petty quarrel over a basic misunderstanding. I think Stephen and Euan you both agree that website paints a sloppy picture of the film!

Hopefully this website which has been involved in discussions from the beginning provides a more informative basis for understanding the production of the film.

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'Man know thyself'

[srivele]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well perhaps I'm one of those snobs because I don't subscribe to the 'we should be grateful for anything' idea. There have been ludicrous films made such as 'Song without end' and Ken Russell's 'Mahler'. However Amadeus (despite its many liberties), shows how it can be done well and I am willing to give this new film the benefit of the doubt despite my reservations concerning historical accuracy as Mr.Rivele has undoubtedly made this film out of genuine love for Beethoven's music.

I should mention that Variety recently reported that Bruce Beresford (a director whose work I admire) is going to do a film about Rachmaninov.