How did classical music get its name?

[PDG]

Originally posted by Chris:
It means music that is created to be a work of art...as I said.

Hmmm....Well, I can't think of a single example of a Beethoven work that was "created to be a work of art". The man was not so superficial.

[Chris]

Creating art is superficial?

[Preston]

Beethoven himself said that he only stayed alive for the sake of the art.

There are a lot of different bands in pop music Chris, that's true. I almost edited my message to say that, but it was to late.

Groups like Britney Spears, The Killers, rap music (God forbid it), etc. are often associated with being pop music. But there are also bands like Fleetwood Mac, Kansas, etc. and so on. I don't think it would be best to describe, say Beethoven as pop music.

Not that it matters, I still think "orchestral", would be a reasonable name for classical music, only if it had to be changed.

Preston

[Nightklavier]

"Orchestral"? So poor Monsieur Chopin and Liszt are just instrumental entertainers, the Scott Joplin's of Romantic period Europe?

"Orchestral" is a Beethoven symphony, a Weber overture, a Strauss symphonic poem, a Wagner prelude... What do you call the piano sonatas, string quartets, and piano concertos? If all of classical music would be named "orchestral" then Mozart's piano sonatas and Chopin's preludes do not qualify?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music

I think that link provides an adequate definition.

[Preston]

I don't understand what you are really saying but I think you are saying that I am trying to call the sonatas, quartets, symphony's, etc. "orchestral". I was just saying, and am probably wrong, it is just a thought and a question I answered that I was asked, instead of calling it classical music it could be called orchestral music. I think classical music should continue to be the name of classical music, though. I was not talking about changing the name or form of the sonatas, quartets, etc. I call the sonatas sonatas, the quartets quartets, and so on.

Chris, sorry about my comment earlier on pop music, I was primarily thinking about the stuff they play on MTV. Sorry about that.

Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-13-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
I don't understand what you are really saying but I think you are saying that I am trying to call the sonatas, quartets, symphony's, etc. "orchestral". I was just saying, and am probably wrong, it is just a thought and a question I answered that I was asked, instead of calling it classical music it could be called orchestral music. I think classical music should continue to be the name of classical music, though. I was not talking about changing the name or form of the sonatas, quartets, etc. I call the sonatas sonatas, the quartets quartets, and so on.

Chris, sorry about my comment earlier on pop music, I was primarily thinking about the stuff they play on MTV. Sorry about that.

Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-13-2006).]

I think that unfortunately the terms we use to describe 'western art serious music' are a compromise. To use the term Classical as most people do lumping together music as diverse as Gregorian Chant and the theme music to Star Wars is clearly wrong. I think Preston that to label all such music orchestral is equally misleading - orchestral means music played by an orchestra. I see no problems with the divisions into madrigal, motet, cantata, solo sonata, chamber, lieder, symphonic etc because this clearly identifies the genre.

However the terms Baroque, Classical and Romantic when used to define specific stylistic periods are also inadequate, but perhaps the best we have. At least it gives us a framework that immediately brings to mind certain composers, a time frame and certain stylistic qualities.

The piano itself is not an orchestral instrument, though performers should try to think in orchestral terms and try to imagine such sounds in interpretation. Discounting the Piano concerto the instrument was not used as an integral part of the orchestra until the 20th century when it often took on a more percussive role. There are earlier exceptions such as Saint-Saens's Carnival of the animals.



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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

When the piano IS used as an orchestral instrument (and it is) it is classified as a percussion instrument, like the celeste or xylophone, for example.

It is interesting to me that the designation "Classical" stuck for all "serious" music prior to the 20th Century. But can you imagine it being called "Romantic" or "Baroque"? Classical just seems to fit better than the other period specifications as a general label. Also, classical suggests something that is out of the past and perhaps archetypal in nature.

[HaydnFan]

I thought this topic was for re-naming the entire output of music ie. "classical", not the "Classical" style that came before Romantic...that term is fine, I think.

[Preston]

Exuse me for not knowing but what is this "Classical Style"?

Kind Regards,
Preston

[HaydnFan]

Preston, if you don't understand "Classical" vs. "classical", maybe that is why you don't understand why orchestral is not an appropriate term for all of this musical output...

...
Classical (with a big C) refers to the specific era of classical music, roughly between 1750 and 1830 ish...this is the music of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, and many of their contemporaries. This style would be as opposed to Romantic, a later era, or Baroque, an earlier era etc.

classical (with a small C) can refer, as we have been saying, to any of this music (Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern, etc.). This is why you see in the record stores the classical music section or you might say to your friends, "I like classical music"...this could mean you like Bach, Mozart, Stravinsky, Monteverdi, Copland, Purcell, etc. etc.

This is where the problem lies, in the confusion of using the same term to refer to two different things: one, a specific era of music "Classical" and two, a general term for all of this non-popular type music called "classical"...we have been trying to come up with names for "classical" because it is confusing as a broad term.

Your suggestion of "orchestral" instead of "classical" is not necessarily the best because not all of this music uses the entire orchestra, as I said before and some of it does not use an orchestra at all (sonatas or any piece for solo instrument is one example)

[This message has been edited by HaydnFan (edited 10-13-2006).]

[Preston]

HaydnFan, yes I understand that, about the era and the genre.

Orchestral doesn't mean that it has to use the whole orchestra. It just means that instruments from the orchetra are being used, there for it is orchestral.

Peter had a good point saying that using "orchestral" could get confusing because composers like John Williams use an orchestra or instruments from an orchestra.

Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-13-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Under the header "Classical Music", wikipedia has the following:

"Classical music is a broad, somewhat imprecise term, referring to music produced in, or rooted in the traditions of, European art, ecclesiastical and concert music, encompassing a broad period from roughly 1000 to the present day. The central norms of this tradition, according to one school of thought, developed between 1550 and 1820, focusing on what is known as the common practice period.

The term classical music did not appear until the early 19th century, in an attempt to "canonize" the period from Bach to Beethoven as an era in music parallel to the golden age of sculpture, architecture and art of classical antiquity (from which no music has directly survived). The earliest reference to "classical music" recorded by the Oxford English Dictionary is from about 1836. Since that time the term has come in common parlance to mean the opposite of popular music."

Hope that helps to clarify some of the questions here?

[Preston]

Peter, are people actually regeristing under these pornographic names and posting this information, or is it bots.

Also, for all of you out there I know a woman who ordered medecine off the internet and she took it and they put her in the mental hospital for three weeks, because it messed her up so bad. She is lucky it wasn't permanent, God bless her.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Nightklavier]

It's gotta be bots. But I don't understand the logic behind some of them. The porn and meds are one thing; many fish will bite those. But did you read the one that talked about Florida and reported on its weather and other uninteresting facts? Do they really think such an advertisement will make me book a flight to Florida? I don't even think the message gave a link; it just blabbed on and on about Florida.

It's just bizarre...

[Preston]

I didn't read the one about Florida. I think I saw one that might have been a bot, about nuclear war and Iraq, or something like that.

Kind Regards,
Preston