Is the immortal beloved anyone and what did y'all think of Gary Oldman?

[Preston]

I have seen the movie Immortal Beloved probably 17 times now, and I thought Gary Oldman was unreal, in a sense. He showed Beethoven's caring side, his cruel side, his violent side, etc.

I ask myself what could F. Murray Abraham do with this part of Daniel Day Lewis. What do y'all think.

Also, I do not believe the immortal beloved to be anyone. I think it was Beethoven just being Beethoven.

I was wondering what y'all thought and if you could give me some advice.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Preston:
I have seen the movie Immortal Beloved probably 17 times now, and I thought Gary Oldman was unreal, in a sense. He showed Beethoven's caring side, his cruel side, his violent side, etc.

I ask myself what could F. Murray Abraham do with this part of Daniel Day Lewis. What do y'all think.

Also, I do not believe the immortal beloved to be anyone. I think it was Beethoven just being Beethoven.

I was wondering what y'all thought and if you could give me some advice.

Kind Regards,
Preston

No other subject matter about Beethoven has been written about then the search for the immortal beloved. It has kept many Beethoven scholars and enthusiasts busy for years and will continue to do so.

In the summer of 1812, advised by his physician, Beethoven goes to the Czech resort, Teplitz. Even though the summer spent here didn’t have any positive influences on his state of health, it was very fruitful in memorable and interesting encounters. One of those encounters was the one between Beethoven and German poet Johann von Goethe. But the summer of 1812 is also important because it was the time when Beethoven wrote the letters are known as “The Immortal Beloved Letters”.


It is almost certain that on July 6, 1812 Beethoven was in Teplitz writing to his Immortal Beloved in Karlsbad (the K. in the letter).

Beethoven's movements in the second half of 1812
June 28 or 29 : Beethoven leaves Vienna
July 1 : Beethoven arrives in Prague where he stayed in the Black Horse Inn. He receives some of his annuity from Prince Kinsky.
July 2 : He meets Varnhagen von Ense
July 4 : Beethoven leaves Prague before noon headed for Teplitz in a 4-horse carriage. At the same time, in an 8-horse carriage, Prince Esterhazy leaves for the same destination. Because Beethoven's carriage doesn't have enough horses to make it over the mountain pass he goes an alternative route - in spite of warnings not to travel this way by night he goes ahead and the coach breaks down in the mud. (Read the relevant passage in the First Letter).
July 5 : Beethoven arrives in Teplitz at 4 am. (This is confirmed in a letter he wrote to his publishers on July 17). He is given temporary quarters on account of his late arrival.
July 6 : Beethoven may have received a letter from the Immortal Beloved in the morning post. In any case he writes the first of his letters. He thinks he has missed the morning post and writes the second letter that evening.
July 7 : He is formally registered on the Teplitz guest list. This piece of information had thrown Thayer off the scent as he presumed that Beethoven could not have written the letter on the 6th whilst travelling. Solomon however, accepts that Beethoven must have been registered late due to his arrival at 4am. To me, this still begs the question of why he wasn't registered on the 6th, about which Solomon is quiet. He writes the third letter - by this time he realises he has read the mailing information wrongly and can post a letter this same morning. Was it ever posted?
July 14 : Prince Karl Lichnowsky arrives in Teplitz and renews his friendship with Beethoven. Goethe arrives on the same day.
July 24 : The von Armins arrive in Teplitz.
July 25 : Beethoven leaves Teplitz for Karlsbad. He stays in the same guesthouse ('Zum Aug Gottes auf der Wiese') as the Brentano family
Although there are many candidates for the Immortal Beloved, other information about the letter we do know. What is missing from the immortal beloved letters is a year. We do know that the first letter was written on Monday 6 July. If we can assume that the day is correct, Monday, July 6 only fell on the dates 1795, 1801, 1807, 1812 and 1818. The date of the letter as being 1812 has been widely recognised as being correct. In 1909 and 1910, two books by Thomas-San-Galli and one by Max Unger finally brought back some scientific rationale into the whole affair. Proceeding from the evidence contained within the letter and from the accumulated knowledge of Beethoven’s movements during his Vienna residence, they ruled out every single year in which the letter could have been written between 1795 and 1818 except for 1812.

Some sort of evidence may appear at a later date, but Maynard Solomon does put up a very good case for Antoine Brentano.




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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Preston]

Thank you, Fidelio. I still believe that Beethoven wrote the letters to noone. Beethoven seems to have done a lot of bizarre things in his life. Like lie about his birth, etc.

When I first told my Mom about the letters, her first words were basically, nobody.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Preston:
Thank you, Fidelio. I still believe that Beethoven wrote the letters to noone. Beethoven seems to have done a lot of bizarre things in his life. Like lie about his birth, etc.

When I first told my Mom about the letters, her first words were basically, nobody.

Kind Regards,
Preston

It's an interesting point. As we know Beethoven was always 'in love'and the letters may be to 'all' his women loves. As far as actors playing Beethoven.....lets get some factual parts into life before we ask who is fit to play Beethoven. Always thought Anthony Hopkins would make a good Beethoen, who I believe turned down the role played by Ed Harris.




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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Preston]

Fidelio,
What about the must it be, it must be. Wasn't that written on a piece of his music?

Kind Regards,
Preston

[LizR]

Originally posted by Fidelio:

No other subject matter about Beethoven has been written about then the search for the immortal beloved. It has kept many Beethoven scholars and enthusiasts busy for years and will continue to do so.

In the summer of 1812, advised by his physician, Beethoven goes to the Czech resort, Teplitz. Even though the summer spent here didn’t have any positive influences on his state of health, it was very fruitful in memorable and interesting encounters. One of those encounters was the one between Beethoven and German poet Johann von Goethe. But the summer of 1812 is also important because it was the time when Beethoven wrote the letters are known as “The Immortal Beloved Letters”.


It is almost certain that on July 6, 1812 Beethoven was in Teplitz writing to his Immortal Beloved in Karlsbad (the K. in the letter).

Beethoven's movements in the second half of 1812
June 28 or 29 : Beethoven leaves Vienna
July 1 : Beethoven arrives in Prague where he stayed in the Black Horse Inn. He receives some of his annuity from Prince Kinsky.
July 2 : He meets Varnhagen von Ense
July 4 : Beethoven leaves Prague before noon headed for Teplitz in a 4-horse carriage. At the same time, in an 8-horse carriage, Prince Esterhazy leaves for the same destination. Because Beethoven's carriage doesn't have enough horses to make it over the mountain pass he goes an alternative route - in spite of warnings not to travel this way by night he goes ahead and the coach breaks down in the mud. (Read the relevant passage in the First Letter).
July 5 : Beethoven arrives in Teplitz at 4 am. (This is confirmed in a letter he wrote to his publishers on July 17). He is given temporary quarters on account of his late arrival.
July 6 : Beethoven may have received a letter from the Immortal Beloved in the morning post. In any case he writes the first of his letters. He thinks he has missed the morning post and writes the second letter that evening.
July 7 : He is formally registered on the Teplitz guest list. This piece of information had thrown Thayer off the scent as he presumed that Beethoven could not have written the letter on the 6th whilst travelling. Solomon however, accepts that Beethoven must have been registered late due to his arrival at 4am. To me, this still begs the question of why he wasn't registered on the 6th, about which Solomon is quiet. He writes the third letter - by this time he realises he has read the mailing information wrongly and can post a letter this same morning. Was it ever posted?
July 14 : Prince Karl Lichnowsky arrives in Teplitz and renews his friendship with Beethoven. Goethe arrives on the same day.
July 24 : The von Armins arrive in Teplitz.
July 25 : Beethoven leaves Teplitz for Karlsbad. He stays in the same guesthouse ('Zum Aug Gottes auf der Wiese') as the Brentano family
Although there are many candidates for the Immortal Beloved, other information about the letter we do know. What is missing from the immortal beloved letters is a year. We do know that the first letter was written on Monday 6 July. If we can assume that the day is correct, Monday, July 6 only fell on the dates 1795, 1801, 1807, 1812 and 1818. The date of the letter as being 1812 has been widely recognised as being correct. In 1909 and 1910, two books by Thomas-San-Galli and one by Max Unger finally brought back some scientific rationale into the whole affair. Proceeding from the evidence contained within the letter and from the accumulated knowledge of Beethoven’s movements during his Vienna residence, they ruled out every single year in which the letter could have been written between 1795 and 1818 except for 1812.

Some sort of evidence may appear at a later date, but Maynard Solomon does put up a very good case for Antoine Brentano.

Dear Fidelio

Thank you for this interesting post. I'm new to Beethoven and did not know these details at all.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Preston:
Fidelio,
What about the must it be, it must be. Wasn't that written on a piece of his music?

Kind Regards,
Preston

Here's a theory I found which I hadn't heard of before. "The opening words of Handel's last great work, his oratorio Jephtha, are 'It must be so', these sung in recitative by the character Zebul: which words, in the eventual German bilingual Chrysander edition of 1886, were to be rendered, 'So muss es sein'. Thus with these words Beethoven's own great musical hero, Handel, had introduced his own magnificent swansong. While, still further, the musical line upon which Handel set these words has a close and uncanny resemblance to the musical motif of Beethoven's own last significant composition - the final movement of his last string quartet, op. 135. Though, as one can see, the semiquaver B[musical flat] is there absent. But that B[musical flat] is a passing note, thematically perhaps of more minor importance in the Handel. While, if the deduction holds, Beethoven rendered the English of 'It must be so' into the more immediate and colloquial 'Es muss sein', and thereby dropped one of Handel's original four syllables.
Could Beethoven have really called to mind this Handel motif when conceiving the final movement of his last quartet?"

Any comments? Rod perhaps??



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Preston]

Joy,
Thank for that most interesting information. What did you think of Gary Oldman, if you don't mind me asking? I believe I have read that you liked his performance, but I was wondering if you could give me a little more detail. And anyone else for that matter.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-13-2006).]

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Preston:
Fidelio,
What about the must it be, it must be. Wasn't that written on a piece of his music?

Kind Regards,
Preston

Yes, you are right!
Muss es sein? ....Es muss sein!" are the words that Ludwig van Beethoven wrote in the score of his 16th string quartet, Op. 135, in F major. These words are translated as "Difficult Decision: Must it be? It must be!" These words express Beethoven's sense of inevitability that characterizes his late style.

All manner of interpretations have been put on these enigmatic words, from the profound to the profoundly profound. All we know for sure is that when a certain official at the Imperial court, who was also a wealthy music lover, failed to attend the first performance of the op.130 Quartet, Beethoven insisted the man send Schuppanzigh the price of the subscription. The official wrote to Beethoven, asking Muss est sein? Beethoven sent him a humorous canon on the words Es muss sein.


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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[This message has been edited by Fidelio (edited 09-13-2006).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Preston:
Joy,
Thank for that most interesting information. What did you think of Gary Oldman, if you don't mind me asking? I believe I have read that you liked his performance, but I was wondering if you could give me a little more detail. And anyone else for that matter.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-13-2006).]

Hi Preston, I enjoyed Gary Oldman's performance for sure. I think he is a fine actor and even though he said he did not know anything about Beethoven prior to the movie I think he was very convincing. Now as for the movie itself, well, it left a lot to be desired. Many facts and figures were misconstrued in order to make a point and, of course, there's that old adage about Hollywood 'taking artistic liberties' which they did for sure. I'm sure 'Copying Beethoven' will be a much better and more factual film even though they have taken certain liberties as well, oh, well, that's show biz!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rutradelusasa]

Gary Oldman is the one thing I like about that movie (other than the music). I just think he is an excellent actor.
I can't think of a movie he made where he did not look and act like his character, the man is a chameleon .

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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[terry]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Preston:
[B]I have seen the movie Immortal Beloved probably 17 times now, and I thought Gary Oldman was unreal, in a sense. He showed Beethoven's caring side, his cruel side, his violent side, etc.

.
First answer, the movie: as one forumist said some years ago (go to the post) Oldman draws B as a psychopatic without any sense of humour who does everything except composing.This is bc the actor is a strong neurotic. False and bad imagine of B! Whoever sees it thinks oh what a horrible man and he wasn't! I took my graduation writing a thesis called "joyous muse: the other B,irnoic and humoristic". I hope about Copying!
Second answer: he definitely wrote to a woman: why should he invent things like "i have your pencil" and moreover, why should'nt he have the right to have a real love? He wasn't a monk!
Don't touch my Ludwig!

[Preston]

Hi all,
Thank you, Joy, for your reply.

Terry, I admit that all aspects of Beethoven are not covered in the movie, but that would be hard to do in my opinion. A neurotic actor may be good to play Beethoven in my opinion, although I am not entirely sure. Beethoven suffered from some very serious problems, God bless him. The movie shows his sense of humor several times, like the scene with his brother Casper, when he gets the letter from Julia. Or when he is looking through the fence, with his brothers at Joanna, there are also other scenes. And I feel that Beethoven didn't have the biggest sense of humor. I "definitly" agree with you some people misunderstanding it and thinking he was a bad person, definitly, although we do have the 9th Symphony scene where he is running and ends up in the pond. I do feel that they did not show enough of his caring side, though.

To your second answer. Because he is Beethoven and was somewhat a confused man, not through his music, though. Keep in mind that he was confused about the simplest things, like insisting that he was born on a different day than his birthday, and more importantly insisting about that his parents weren't his real parents, saying that some archduke was his real parent. Maybe Peter can explain this better.

I do not know what you mean, "Don't touch my Ludwig". Could you clarify that.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-14-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Hi all,
Thank you, Joy, for your reply.

Terry, I admit that all aspects of Beethoven are not covered in the movie, but that would be hard to do in my opinion. A neurotic actor may be good to play Beethoven in my opinion, although I am not entirely sure. Beethoven suffered from some very serious problems, God bless him. The movie shows his sense of humor several times, like the scene with his brother Casper, when he gets the letter from Julia. Or when he is looking through the fence, with his brothers at Joanna. And I feel that Beethoven didn't have the biggest sense of humor. I "definitly" agree with you some people misunderstanding it and thinking he was a bad person, definitly, although we do have the 9th Symphony scene where he is running and ends up in the pond. I do feel that they did not show enough of his caring side, though.

To your second answer. Because he is Beethoven and was somewhat a confused man, not through his music, though. Keep in mind that he was confused about the simplest things, like insisting that he was born on a different day than his birthday, and more importantly insisting about that his parents weren't his real parents, saying that some archduke was his real parent. Maybe Peter can explain this better.

I do not know what you mean, "Don't touch my Ludwig". Could you clarify that.

Kind Regards,
Preston

Well Preston, Beethoven didn't insist his parents weren't his real parents - it is true he didn't deny rumours that he was of noble ancestry, but this was to further his claims over his nephew by being able to use the higher court for the nobility.

As to his date of birth - he may well genuinely have believed himself to be 2 years younger than he actually was. The fact that he wrote to Wegeler when he was around 40 asking him to find his baptismal certificate in order to clarify his true age shows this. Beethoven actually says "Unfortunately I have lived a long time without even knowing my age".

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Peter I believe that after he recieved his baptismal certificate he still denied his own birth date. That is what Soloman says.

From what I understand it was Reiss writing him a letter saying something like, "for your mother's sake let it be known that you are not born under nobility". Then he said, "let the rumour stop".

Kind Regards,
Preston


[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-14-2006).]