Ludwig Van Beethoven

[Claudie MICAULT]

I was not maybe clear enough : Yes Johann was there with young Breuning, but not the all afternoon : he went with SCHINDLER at the Währing cimetery to reserve a place for B..... Whan they returned B. was dead. I think as B. hated Therese.. she would not have been there (except to look after money maybe !). Poor B. ! A dog would have been better....

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Claudie

[Claudie MICAULT]

I was not maybe clear enough : Yes Johann was there with young Breuning, but not the all afternoon : he went with SCHINDLER at the Währing cimetery to reserve a place for B..... Whan they returned B. was dead. I think as B. hated Therese.. she would not have been there (except to look after money maybe !). Poor B. ! A dog would have been better....

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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
I was not maybe clear enough : Yes Johann was there with young Breuning, but not the all afternoon : he went with SCHINDLER at the Währing cimetery to reserve a place for B..... Whan they returned B. was dead. I think as B. hated Therese.. she would not have been there (except to look after money maybe !). Poor B. ! A dog would have been better....

I am aware of this, having Breuning's book, and also of B's apparent dislike of Therese. However she could potentially have put such petty recriminations aside when death became an issue, so your point is open to question - even Johanna was annoyed about only finding out about his death some time after the event. But you could be right, and I also believe she would have been little reason for her to be there once B was in a coma. The whole situation would have been very unpleasant. I suggest the only women who were there where those who HAD to be there - ie Sali and possibly, but less likely, the nurse.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
I was not maybe clear enough : Yes Johann was there with young Breuning, but not the all afternoon : he went with SCHINDLER at the Währing cimetery to reserve a place for B..... Whan they returned B. was dead. I think as B. hated Therese.. she would not have been there (except to look after money maybe !). Poor B. ! A dog would have been better....

The fact that Schindler and Johann went off to Wahring is all the more reason why Therese was there! She stayed behind at the house waiting for her husband! Yes B was reputed to have loathed Therese, but that didn't put him off spending a couple months with her at Gneixendorf.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Why would Thayer have a problem with Therese!? I'm afraid in a court of law you'd lose - saying there's no proof she WASN"T there is not good enough. And the only eye-witness is not reliable. Case dismissed!

It is for YOU to find some evidence that confronts the status quo and not vise versa, for it is you alone (as far as I am aware) that takes this stance.

The only eye witness claimed that Frau Beethoven was present - that he may have thought Therese was the mother of Karl doesn't mean she wasn't present. Your dismissal of H is based soley on his having made this error. You then jump to the conclusion as did Thayer that the woman must have been Sali. I accept that you may be right but we'll never know for certain. I hardly think your case is conclusive either.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The only eye witness claimed that Frau Beethoven was present - that he may have thought Therese was the mother of Karl doesn't mean she wasn't present. Your dismissal of H is based soley on his having made this error. You then jump to the conclusion as did Thayer that the woman must have been Sali. I accept that you may be right but we'll never know for certain. I hardly think your case is conclusive either.

It is not my case, it is the case of B scholars. It is not conclusive but more so than your own - when H mentioned 'Karl's mother' he did not mention Therese. When he mentioned Therese he did not mention Karl's mother. H does not mention Sali.

I just do not understand why T would want to hang around, especially when B was in a coma. I do not really understand why you are persuing this alternative argument!

As an aside I am not convinced as to the extent B may have disliked Therese.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

In the introduction written for Breuning's book Solomon writes that Breuning have told to THAYER that he had never personally seen either Johanna or Therese van Beethoven....
The relationship between B. and Therese in Gneixendorf were not very happy. I do not think B. would have accepted to see T. at his bedside. It is clear (from Breuning) that his brother Johann was always there....
And therese is dead soon after B.... maybe was she sick also at the time B. died ???

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
In the introduction written for Breuning's book Solomon writes that Breuning have told to THAYER that he had never personally seen either Johanna or Therese van Beethoven....
The relationship between B. and Therese in Gneixendorf were not very happy. I do not think B. would have accepted to see T. at his bedside. It is clear (from Breuning) that his brother Johann was always there....
And therese is dead soon after B.... maybe was she sick also at the time B. died ???

I found the same point (Stephan von Breuning's)in Thayer's book itself, but since I thought the discussion had come to a close I didn't bother mentioning it. Therese would have had to have come to the death room after S von Breuning left with Schindler to go to Wahring, and left alone before they returned. B's brother seems to have been there all this time.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-29-2001).]