Ludwig Van Beethoven

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The 2 people present at the moment of Beethoven's death were Anselm Huttenbrenner and oddly in my opinion B's sister in law Therese Van Beethoven. B had been staying in Oct and Nov 1826 with her and his brother Johann at their Gneixendorf estate and he had left after a furious argument. Beethoven had done all he could to prevent her marriage to his brother in 1812 and they had never got on, yet she was destined to be with the composer in his last minutes - bizarre!

Not so! It is beyond doubt Therese Van Beethoven was not there. Thayer interviewed her sister in later years and she said that Therese was somewhat annoyed that she did not know of B's death until some time after it occured. The 'Frau Beethoven' was almost certainly Sali his housekeeper.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not so! It is beyond doubt Therese Van Beethoven was not there. Thayer interviewed her sister in later years and she said that Therese was somewhat annoyed that she did not know of B's death until some time after it occured. The 'Frau Beethoven' was almost certainly Sali his housekeeper.

Possibly, as Anselm Huttenbrenner wrote his account of the last moments many years later in 1868. On the other hand he was very specific in naming other people who were present earlier that day and it seems odd that he would have mistaken Sali for Therese Van Beethoven - why Therese? It seems a curious mistake to make regarding such a momentous event.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Possibly, as Anselm Huttenbrenner wrote his account of the last moments many years later in 1868. On the other hand he was very specific in naming other people who were present earlier that day and it seems odd that he would have mistaken Sali for Therese Van Beethoven - why Therese? It seems a curious mistake to make regarding such a momentous event.

H could easily make the mistake for I believe he was not familiar with either of the women in question. Certainly all of the other associates of B who put pen to paper had numerous lapses of memory. Whatever, T's sister would have no reason to lie and nobody else has ever mentioned the presence of T at the end.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
H could easily make the mistake for I believe he was not familiar with either of the women in question. Certainly all of the other associates of B who put pen to paper had numerous lapses of memory. Whatever, T's sister would have no reason to lie and nobody else has ever mentioned the presence of T at the end.

If he wasn't familiar with her, why assume it was Therese and not Johanna say, or anyone else come to that! Therese is such an odd choice to assume. Surely T being married to a wealthy business man would have been better attired than Sali the housekeeper? Hard to make a mistake like that in those days. He specifically made the point that she was the wife of Johann Van Beethoven, the apothecary from Linz. I don't think his account can be dismissed so lightly as he and some unknown woman were the only two present at the time, so we obviously can't have any other eye witness accounts of the final hours. Why should T's sister be any more reliable than Huttenbrener?

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-20-2001).]

[MCS]

Originally posted by Rod:
Would you think I'd give a bad recommendation??!!!

Heavens no!!! When someone is contacted by the spirit of Beethoven via a sugar packet, I consider their word absolutely trustworthy!

Mary

[Claudie MICAULT]

Yes, I agree that Therese must have been dressed differently as Sali... But Hüttenbrenner was young and shocked at this time, and his memories were written long after. From Gerhard von BREUNING, we can read the following :
" I had stayed in the room of the dying man, with B.'s brother Johann and Sali the housekeeper. It was between four and five o'clock ; the dense clouds drifting together from every quarter increasingly obscured the daylight and, all a sudden, a violent storm broke, with driving snow ans hail. (....) At about 5.15 I was called to my teacher. The end could be expected any minute. I left him alive, or at least still breathing, for the last time. I had hardly been home half an hour when the housekeeper came over to tell us that death had come about 5.45. At the last moment Anselm Hüttenbrenner of Graz happened to be there."

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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Yes, I agree that Therese must have been dressed differently as Sali... But Hüttenbrenner was young and shocked at this time, and his memories were written long after. From Gerhard von BREUNING, we can read the following :
" I had stayed in the room of the dying man, with B.'s brother Johann and Sali the housekeeper. It was between four and five o'clock ; the dense clouds drifting together from every quarter increasingly obscured the daylight and, all a sudden, a violent storm broke, with driving snow ans hail. (....) At about 5.15 I was called to my teacher. The end could be expected any minute. I left him alive, or at least still breathing, for the last time. I had hardly been home half an hour when the housekeeper came over to tell us that death had come about 5.45. At the last moment Anselm Hüttenbrenner of Graz happened to be there."

This is getting more intriguing! - If Johann Van Beethoven was present that day, how come Therese's sister claimed to Thayer that Therese was annoyed that she was unaware of B's death until some time after the event?
Surely Gerhard Breuning was even younger than Huttenbrenner and probably even more distressed.

It seems to me that if Johann was there, then in all likelyhood so was his wife.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


...It seems to me that if Johann was there, then in all likelyhood so was his wife.

And in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Ultimately your position rests on the idea that a wife follows her husband! Perhaps she was waiting outside! But in the death room at the end the evidence from all those present apart from H suggests T was not there. I have read not a single text that suggests that H was in fact correct and all the others in error.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by MCS:
Heavens no!!! When someone is contacted by the spirit of Beethoven via a sugar packet, I consider their word absolutely trustworthy!

Mary

Then take heed of it woman!!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
And in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Ultimately your position rests on the idea that a wife follows her husband! Perhaps she was waiting outside! But in the death room at the end the evidence from all those present apart from H suggests T was not there. I have read not a single text that suggests that H was in fact correct and all the others in error.

Whether or not the wife followed the husband, presumably she talked to him - why didn't she know of Beethoven's death until some time after? Did Johann keep it from her?

Who are all the others? Reliable Schindler (who wasn't present at the time of death), 13yr old Gerhard Breuning (who wasn't present at the time of death either) and Huttenbrenner who was present.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Whether or not the wife followed the husband, presumably she talked to him - why didn't she know of Beethoven's death until some time after? Did Johann keep it from her?

Who are all the others? Reliable Schindler (who wasn't present at the time of death), 13yr old Gerhard Breuning (who wasn't present at the time of death either) and Huttenbrenner who was present.

I have irrefutable evidence that H was confused on this issue, for no sooner than two months before stating that it was Therese who was present, he stated to Thayer (the interview was transcribed) that the woman was 'Karl's mother'!! (read Thayer p1051). Thayer later interviewed Karl's wife (not T's sister as I said earlier, my confusion here!) who said Johanna wasn't present and was told afterwards. Perhaps Thayer informed T of this fact and thus he changed his story. This points the fact that T was not personally familiar with any of the women concerned, and/or that his memory was not reliable in this case.

Schinder, who by his admission was not present, adds another candidate, stating that a nurse from Dr Wawruch's clinic was also there at the end, I don't know S's source for this.

All in all I doubt that the scene at the end would have been a situation 'fit for ladies'. If I were T's husband at the time, I don't think I would have brought her along.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Thayer later interviewed Karl's wife (not T's sister as I said earlier, my confusion here!) who said Johanna wasn't present and was told afterwards.

That makes more sense! I'm sure Johanna wasn't present.

Perhaps Thayer informed T of this fact and thus he changed his story. This points the fact that T was not personally familiar with any of the women concerned, and/or that his memory was not reliable in this case.


I think you mean H not T. Thayer couldn't have spoken to Therese herself as she died in 1828.

Schinder, who by his admission was not present, adds another candidate, stating that a nurse from Dr Wawruch's clinic was also there at the end, I don't know S's source for this.

Huttenbrener also mentions his friend Joseph Teltscher.

All in all I doubt that the scene at the end would have been a situation 'fit for ladies'. If I were T's husband at the time, I don't think I would have brought her along.



Perhaps T was made of sterner stuff - If Johann was present that day, then it is at least possible that Therese was also.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-21-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

That makes more sense! I'm sure Johanna wasn't present.

You are happy to disregard H in this circumstance!

Originally posted by Peter:

"I think you mean H not T. Thayer couldn't have spoken to Therese herself as she died in 1828."

Yes I meant H, type error in my haste.

Originally posted by Peter:

Huttenbrener also mentions his friend Joseph Teltscher.

It seems like every man, woman and dog were present at this event!! But regarding T, with respect, I suggest you are grasping at straws on the evidence we have, even for H she was his second guess! Be a man Peter, concede and beg for mercy, whist my mood is still pleasant!




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
You are happy to disregard H in this circumstance!


I accept that H was probably unfamiliar with either T or J, therefore he may have wrongly assumed either that Therese was Johanna or that Therese was karl's mother - It seems a far more incredible mistake to confuse her with the housekeeper.

It seems like every man, woman and dog were present at this event!! But regarding T, with respect, I suggest you are grasping at straws on the evidence we have, even for H she was his second guess! Be a man Peter, concede and beg for mercy, whist my mood is still pleasant!

The evidence we have has been dismissed by those who were not there. Huttenbrenner may well have mistakenly thought that Therese was Karl's mother, but he obvioulsy repeated his story that a Frau Beethoven was present. Although G.Breuning doesn't say Therese was there, he doesn't say she wasn't either. He leaves other people out of his account who were there and left B's house before the death occurred. Schindler wasn't present either, so what evidence is there to say Therese wasn't present other than H may have thought that Therese was Karl's mother?

I think Thayer was too eager to dismiss H, perhaps because he couldn't stomach the thought of Therese being present!

I'll only beg for mercy if you can definitely prove me wrong!

[/B]

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Why would Thayer have a problem with Therese!? I'm afraid in a court of law you'd lose - saying there's no proof she WASN"T there is not good enough. And the only eye-witness is not reliable. Case dismissed!

It is for YOU to find some evidence that confronts the status quo and not vise versa, for it is you alone (as far as I am aware) that takes this stance.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin