Background to Beethoven

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
It took some time before I found the "Zwey Litaneyen" in the Wotquenne Verzeichnis. They are catalogued as WQ 204. Makes me curious as well. In which content did Beethoven mention them?

It was prior to starting work on the Missa when he was looking through the libraries of Lobkowitz and Archduke Rudolph in search of old music and treatise on liturgical procedure. The litanies were published in Copenhagen 1786 as "Zwei Litaneyen..fur acht Singstimmen in zwei choren".

I was wondering since you didn't rate those two sonata sets so highly, which you thought were the most interesting by CPE and also which of the symphonies would you recommend?


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-04-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
It was prior to starting work on the Missa when he was looking through the libraries of Lobkowitz and Archduke Rudolph in search of old music and treatise on liturgical procedure. The litanies were published in Copenhagen 1786 as "Zwei Litaneyen..fur acht Singstimmen in zwei choren".

Ah, I see... One of the many influences on the Missa. Yes, this awakens curiosity.

I was wondering since you didn't rate those two sonata sets so highly, which you thought were the most interesting by CPE and also which of the symphonies would you recommend?

First of all: I called the two sets "more conventional", but that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate them! They are just not like the spectacular and expressive works that CPE wrote later on, in his empfindsamer style, with all the outbursts of emotions.
In fact, this thread has provoked me to see if I can find the Asperen set somewhere.
His fantasias and some of his later sonatas, like the op. 62, are the most exciting and enjoyable. Espcially the fantasias sound like improvisations, and show the way to some of Mozart's stuff, especially his KV 457/475. It's very hard to say where to start, because it is such a mixed bag.

Here is one of the Fantasias, played on a clavichord, the instrument best suited to CPE's expressive style: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/9006947..._61_3.mp3.html


As for the symphonies, it's much easier; they generally make your blood pressure rise because of the rhytmical energy; the Sturm und Drang elements; the sudden changes of mood.
I am very fond of the 6 symphonies WQ 182, as performed by the English Consort/Pinnock, and remember the shock when I heard them for the first time. Also very nice is the disc with 5 WQ 183/182 symphonies played by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.

CPE also composed a few ravishing flute concerti - everything comes together there: gallantry, Empfindsamkeit, classical structure, and sheer beauty. Also some oboe concerti, and many, many harpsichord concerti - some of them have recently been recorded for the first time! My favorite one is the double concerto for harpsichord and piano, CPE balancing on the line between Baroque and classical style.
I uploaded the 1st mvt: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/3814066...ppio_.mp3.html

It's from a really nice cd with concerti and a symphony, performed by the Freiburger Barockorchester.
If you need more recommandations: no problem, but of course it's also a matter of taste.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
First of all: I called the two sets "more conventional", but that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate them! They are just not like the spectacular and expressive works that CPE wrote later on, in his empfindsamer style, with all the outbursts of emotions.
In fact, this thread has provoked me to see if I can find the Asperen set somewhere.
His fantasias and some of his later sonatas, like the op. 62, are the most exciting and enjoyable. Espcially the fantasias sound like improvisations, and show the way to some of Mozart's stuff, especially his KV 457/475. It's very hard to say where to start, because it is such a mixed bag.

Here is one of the Fantasias, played on a clavichord, the instrument best suited to CPE's expressive style: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/9006947..._61_3.mp3.html


As for the symphonies, it's much easier; they generally make your blood pressure rise because of the rhytmical energy; the Sturm und Drang elements; the sudden changes of mood.
I am very fond of the 6 symphonies WQ 182, as performed by the English Consort/Pinnock, and remember the shock when I heard them for the first time. Also very nice is the disc with 5 WQ 183/182 symphonies played by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.

CPE also composed a few ravishing flute concerti - everything comes together there: gallantry, Empfindsamkeit, classical structure, and sheer beauty. Also some oboe concerti, and many, many harpsichord concerti - some of them have recently been recorded for the first time! My favorite one is the double concerto for harpsichord and piano, CPE balancing on the line between Baroque and classical style.
I uploaded the 1st mvt: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/3814066...ppio_.mp3.html

It's from a really nice cd with concerti and a symphony, performed by the Freiburger Barockorchester.
If you need more recommandations: no problem, but of course it's also a matter of taste.

Thanks very much for that Frankli - I've just been listening to Gould's 1955 Goldberg variations (in order to help me recover from today's teaching session!). I'm not always keen on his Bach (the dry overuse of staccato is not to my taste, though I respect his sincerity as an artist) - but this was still an amazing experience, his technique is simply astounding. I've yet to get the Murray Perahia set for comparison or indeed Gould's later 1982 version.

The CPE Fantasia is certainly improvisatory and quite bizarre in places - it reminds me that of course instrumentalists were supposed to improvise in those days and CPE must have been very accomplished! This is certainly remarkable music, but I wonder just how much of it Beethoven was familiar with? Do you know Beethoven's fantasia in G minor Op.77? A work that implies Beethoven's improvisational skill.

The double concerto is very enjoyable - it sounds as though the baroque is struggling to give birth to the classical!

Thanks for sharing those files as you've wetted my appetite for more and I'll check out your suggestions.

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'Man know thyself'

[Johan]

Originally posted by Peter:

It is of course well known that when Beethoven first arrived in Vienna it was as a pianist that he quickly made a reputation. He is known to have played the viola in the court orchestra at Bonn but perhaps it is less well known that in Vienna he took part in quartet performances at the chamber music sessions held at Prince Lichnowsky's and Emanuel Aloys Förster. Wegeler describes in particular how Beethoven participated in the performance of a new quartet by Förster who he is known to have admired (he also taught piano to one of his sons in 1802 and 1804). I think this experience led directly to the appearance of the Op.18 quartets and it would be interesting if anyone has heard any of Förster's quartets or quintets?

This post is part of my on-going season of delving into the background influences on Beethoven so expect more in the future!

Great, Peter!

I have been a long time interested in the influences that came to Rhineland from France. As Beethoven played the viola in the Hofkapelle at Bonn he came to know new musical ideas from France. His later high opinion of many composers (not necessarily Frenchmen)working in France and the musical culture there, would make it interesting to know more of these influences.
I am interested myself in finding out more about this.
The playing-lists of the operas include Mozart, Gluck, Cimarosa, Sacchini, Benda, Neefe (!), Salieri, Paisiello, Grétry, Pergolesi, Gossec, Dalayrac, Holzbauer, Dittersdorf, Umlauf,...
Some of these composers lived in Paris (Gluck, Salieri (for a while), Grétry, Gossec, Dalayrac). Could this list of composers from France influencing him be made complete? Where would the influence lie? Greater freedom of ideas?



[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 10-04-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Johan:
Great, Peter!

I have been a long time interested in the influences that came to Rhineland from France. As Beethoven played the viola in the Hofkapelle at Bonn he came to know new musical ideas from France. His later high opinion of many composers (not necessarily Frenchmen)working in France and the musical culture there, would make it interesting to know more of these influences.
I am interested myself in finding out more about this.
The playing-lists of the operas include Mozart, Gluck, Cimarosa, Sacchini, Benda, Neefe (!), Salieri, Paisiello, Grétry, Pergolesi, Gossec, Dalayrac, Holzbauer, Dittersdorf, Umlauf,...
Some of these composers lived in Paris (Gluck, Salieri (for a while), Grétry, Gossec, Dalayrac). Could this list of composers from France influencing him be made complete? Where would the influence lie? Greater freedom of ideas?

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 10-04-2006).]

Yes Johann I think this topic is important if we are to truly understand Beethoven and put him in context. The French influence I think played a big part in the Heroic style of the middle period works. Composers living in France but not all necessarily French such as Mehul, Gretry, Spontini and Cherubini - all of whom I'd like to look at in more detail. Cherubini's operas such as Lodoiska, Les deux Journees and Medee are of particular interest. Beethoven owned a copy of the overture to Medee and there are strong parallels with his overture to Egmont. Spontini's opera La Vestale was his greatest success and the libretto was by none other than Bouilly, the same man whose libretto Leonore was the source for Beethoven's opera.

Two other composers of interest are Viotti and Pierre Rode (for whom Beethoven wrote his violin sonata Op.96) for their influence on Beethoven's violin concerto.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-04-2006).]

[Johan]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes Johann I think this topic is important if we are to truly understand Beethoven and put him in context. The French influence I think played a big part in the Heroic style of the middle period works. Composers living in France but not all necessarily French such as Mehul, Gretry, Spontini and Cherubini - all of whom I'd like to look at in more detail. Cherubini's operas such as Lodoiska, Les deux Journees and Medee are of particular interest. Beethoven owned a copy of the overture to Medee and there are strong parallels with his overture to Egmont. Spontini's opera La Vestale was his greatest success and the libretto was by none other than Bouilly, the same man whose libretto Leonore was the source for Beethoven's opera.

Two other composers of interest are Viotti and Pierre Rode (for whom Beethoven wrote his violin sonata Op.96) for their influence on Beethoven's violin concerto.

Peter, you just pointed out the things why I also am greatly interested in this aspect. I agree with you that it was certainly mostly the middle period that directly was influenced by these ideas.

One other thing is the "identity" of the noble woman in the province of Touraine in the libretto written by Bouilly. She is said to have been the Countess of Semblancay. Besides being a historian and egyptologist I am interested in genealogy. This is surely false (The dukes and duchesses of Luynes used to have this title at the time of Revolution). It is altogether doubtful if there was any such "fait historique" lying behind this libretto.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Thanks very much for that Frankli - I've just been listening to Gould's 1955 Goldberg variations (in order to help me recover from today's teaching session!). I'm not always keen on his Bach (the dry overuse of staccato is not to my taste, though I respect his sincerity as an artist) - but this was still an amazing experience, his technique is simply astounding. I've yet to get the Murray Perahia set for comparison or indeed Gould's later 1982 version.

Yep, there are some piano versions that even I like. Particularly the one by A. Schiff, who talks condenscendingly about harpsichords, but plays the piano with such intelligence, that I forgive him.

The CPE Fantasia is certainly improvisatory and quite bizarre in places - it reminds me that of course instrumentalists were supposed to improvise in those days and CPE must have been very accomplished! This is certainly remarkable music, but I wonder just how much of it Beethoven was familiar with? Do you know Beethoven's fantasia in G minor Op.77? A work that implies Beethoven's improvisational skill.

Now you say it, op. 77 sounds like a good comparison. Weird piece, and I just wonder how it would sound on a clavichord, with the clear-cut arpeggios.

Reading and thinking, and with the knowledge that Beethoven grew up not so far from where CPE lived, I guess that Beethoven must have seen and played CPE's music a lot in his early years. And had not Neefe, one of Beethoven's teachers, been a pupil of CPE?
In the Beethoven Companion there are some examples of direct influences from CPE to Beethoven, from his early sonatas to op. 110!
In 1809 he writes to Breitkopf that he only possesses a few of CPE's keyboard pieces. Next year he asks them for everything that they had published. He also copied some of the Wurttemberg sonatas, years before.

The double concerto is very enjoyable - it sounds as though the baroque is struggling to give birth to the classical!

Yes, that's the general idea, I think. And it is worked out in detail. Just compare the way how piano and harpsichord respond on each other's frases.

Thanks for sharing those files as you've wetted my appetite for more and I'll check out your suggestions.

You are welcome!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Johan:
Peter, you just pointed out the things why I also am greatly interested in this aspect. I agree with you that it was certainly mostly the middle period that directly was influenced by these ideas.

One other thing is the "identity" of the noble woman in the province of Touraine in the libretto written by Bouilly. She is said to have been the Countess of Semblancay. Besides being a historian and egyptologist I am interested in genealogy. This is surely false (The dukes and duchesses of Luynes used to have this title at the time of Revolution). It is altogether doubtful if there was any such "fait historique" lying behind this libretto.

I agree it sounds unlikely, but in his 1836 autobiography Mes Récapitulations, Bouilly claimed the story was a true one and one in which he had actually participated while he was a judge of the Criminal Tribunal in Tours. However, no records justifying his assertions have ever come to light.
He wrote of "... a sublime deed of heroism and devotion by one of the ladies of the Touraine, whose noble efforts I had the happiness of assisting". He thought it advisable to move the events to sixteenth-century Spain and use Spanish names, fearing that the authorities in Tours might recognize some of the characters.

Interestingly Paer's version of the opera was found amongst Beethoven's papers. It was first performed in Dresden on Oct 3rd 1804 but not until 1809 in Vienna, although it was performed privately at Prince Lobkowitz's palace in early 1806. Paer and Beethoven knew each other and it is possible that his work had some influence on Beethoven as there are common ideas of dramatic and musical treatment that are missing from the Gaveaux opera (1798).

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree it sounds unlikely, but in his 1836 autobiography Mes Récapitulations, Bouilly claimed the story was a true one and one in which he had actually participated while he was a judge of the Criminal Tribunal in Tours. However, no records justifying his assertions have ever come to light.
He wrote of "... a sublime deed of heroism and devotion by one of the ladies of the Touraine, whose noble efforts I had the happiness of assisting". He thought it advisable to move the events to sixteenth-century Spain and use Spanish names, fearing that the authorities in Tours might recognize some of the characters.

Interestingly Paer's version of the opera was found amongst Beethoven's papers. It was first performed in Dresden on Oct 3rd 1804 but not until 1809 in Vienna, although it was performed privately at Prince Lobkowitz's palace in early 1806. Paer and Beethoven knew each other and it is possible that his work had some influence on Beethoven as there are common ideas of dramatic and musical treatment that are missing from the Gaveaux opera (1798).

Dear Johan

Allow me to add that the composer Mayr (1763-1845) composed and performed his "L'Amor Coniugale" in 1805, based on the same plot as Beethoven's "Fidelio."


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Yep, there are some piano versions that even I like. Particularly the one by A. Schiff, who talks condenscendingly about harpsichords, but plays the piano with such intelligence, that I forgive him.

I haven't heard Schiff's Goldberg but I have heard him with Mozart and Schubert and I have to say I think Perahia is in a different league altogether.

I'm not sure about Neefe studying with CPE but he went to Leipzig where his mentor was Johann Adam Hiller (choir master and organist of the Thomaskirche 1789-1801). This is obviously where he came into contact with the music of JS.

Hiller became a sort of father figure to Neefe and he characterized Hiller as his "musical Gellert".


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-05-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:

I'm not sure about Neefe studying with CPE but he went to Leipzig where his mentor was Johann Adam Hiller (choir master and organist of the Thomaskirche 1789-1801). This is obviously where he came into contact with the music of JS.
Hiller became a sort of father figure to Neefe and he characterized Hiller as his "musical Gellert".

Yes, I just read so in my encyclopedia. And I was wrong about Neefe studying with CPE, but on the other hand, CPE's theoretical writings were very important for Neefe's development as a composer.

Now back to Förster. I have listened to the double cd with four string quintets, composed in the 1790's, and read the instructive booklet. All this makes it better understandable what Beethoven saw in that man. The music is good, very good at places, and there is nothing trivial in it, that's one. The quintets show a strong influence from CPE and Mozart, that's two. One of the quintets is named "Fantasie und Sonate"; it is almost 40 minutes long, and the Fantasie itself contains 5 short movements with altering tempi. In that respect it is reminiscent to one of CPE's Fantasias - but also to Locatelli's weird concerto grosso "Pianto d'Arianna".

One of the other quintet's first movement is clearly based on Mozart's KV 516. Another of the quintets has a romantic touch; I would have placed it 20 or 30 years later.

Together with Förster's obvious originality and his modern approach to music, I can now quite understand why Beethoven held him in high esteem, and vice versa.

I uploaded the Fantasie:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/4238563...tasie.mp3.html

Another strong first movement:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/9498356...ivace.mp3.html

And the text in the booklet:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Forster.pdf

Don't miss the hilarious comments on the reason why the above mentioned quintet with the Fantasie was not a great succes!

The excellent performers are "Les Adieux", the recording is from 1997, and I can recommend it to anybody.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 10-06-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Yes, I just read so in my encyclopedia. And I was wrong about Neefe studying with CPE, but on the other hand, CPE's theoretical writings were very important for Neefe's development as a composer.

Now back to Förster. I have listened to the double cd with four string quintets, composed in the 1790's, and read the instructive booklet. All this makes it better understandable what Beethoven saw in that man. The music is good, very good at places, and there is nothing trivial in it, that's one. The quintets show a strong influence from CPE and Mozart, that's two. One of the quintets is named "Fantasie und Sonate"; it is almost 40 minutes long, and the Fantasie itself contains 5 short movements with altering tempi. In that respect it is reminiscent to one of CPE's Fantasias - but also to Locatelli's weird concerto grosso "Pianto d'Arianna".

One of the other quintet's first movement is clearly based on Mozart's KV 516. Another of the quintets has a romantic touch; I would have placed it 20 or 30 years later.

Together with Förster's obvious originality and his modern approach to music, I can now quite understand why Beethoven held him in high esteem, and vice versa.

I uploaded the Fantasie:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/4238563...tasie.mp3.html

Another strong first movement:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/9498356...ivace.mp3.html

And the text in the booklet:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Forster.pdf

Don't miss the hilarious comments on the reason why the above mentioned quintet with the Fantasie was not a great succes!

The excellent performers are "Les Adieux", the recording is from 1997, and I can recommend it to anybody.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 10-06-2006).]

Well thanks for that - a real treat, they certainly do not deserve the virtual oblivion they have earned themselves - I can think of plenty of well known works that warrant that far more! I thought the fantasia quite wonderful and the first movement of the other has some very fine moments that occasionally I thought even hinted at Schubert with some of the tremolando writing (I wonder if he knew them when writing his fabulous C major quintet?).

Interesting notes - who would have thought lack of a convenient page turning space could wreck a work's chances!

Yes in a way it's a pity Neefe wasn't a CPE pupil as we would have had a direct line through JS to LVB - and even I could have claimed that through various teachers!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Continuing my delve into the background influences on Beethoven here is some info on Viotti whose violin concertos influenced those of Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms.

Founder of the modern school of violinist, b. at Fontanetto, Piedmont, 23 May, 173; d. 3 March, 1824. He studied under Giovannini, and at Turin under Pugnani, with whom he went on a tour n 1780. He showed not only an extraordinary virtuosity, but wrote several concertos for the violin, and his playing in Germany, Russia, and France attracted considerable attention. For a time he was attached to the Court of Marie Antoinette, and he lived with Cherubini in 1785 and 1786. Owing to the Revolution, he quitted Paris, and arrived in London in July, 1792. He succeeded Cramer as leader at the King's Theatre, and was in the highest esteem as a teacher, but owing to base intrigue he had to leave England in 1798. Returning to London in 1801 he resumed his violin classes, but had a disastrous experience as a wine merchant. Again devoting himself to the violin, he returned to Paris in 1814 and was Director of the French Opera from 1819 to 1822. Unfortunately, his directorate was not a financial success and he came back to London in the spring of the year 1824. As a composer, he enriched violin music by his numerous concertos and sonatas, and by a few dainty songs. However, it is as a virtuoso and as the founder of modern violin playing that Viotti will be remembered. Among his pupils were Pixis, Rode, Alday, Vacher, Labarne, and others.

The last ten concertos, in particular, begin to approach the Romantic idiom, and it is clear that Viotti's idiomatic figurations and noble lyricism made an impact on Beethoven's conception of the violin concerto. Of particular note is the Concerto No.22 in A minor (1792), which Brahms hailed as a masterpiece and used as a model in the composition of his own concerto for the instrument.

[atserriotserri]

Thanks very much for that Frankli - I've just been listening to Gould's 1955 Goldberg variations (in order to help me recover from today's teaching session!). I'm not always keen on his Bach (the dry overuse of staccato is not to my taste, though I respect his sincerity as an artist) - but this was still an amazing experience, his technique is simply astounding. I've yet to get the Murray Perahia set for comparison or indeed Gould's later 1982 version...

Peter, if you haven't heard the 1982 version, possibly you'll like it more than the 1955 one. As a matter of fact, Gould (whose controversial assertions sometimes we've discussed in this forum) criticised his 1955 recording on his last years, almost describing it as a youth error, that's why he wanted to record again the variations, and if I'm not mistaken, that was his last recording.

I don't have the Perahia, but Frankli mentioned A. Schiff, and I have a great live recording (ECM label), don't know his older records.

By the way, if you're not always keen on his Bach, beware of his Beethoven ... despite the fact that at the end of his life recorded more Beethoven than Bach, the first is totally ignored.

I'd like to listen your opinion, in fact...

[Peter]

Peter, if you haven't heard the 1982 version, possibly you'll like it more than the 1955 one. As a matter of fact, Gould (whose controversial assertions sometimes we've discussed in this forum) criticised his 1955 recording on his last years, almost describing it as a youth error, that's why he wanted to record again the variations, and if I'm not mistaken, that was his last recording.

I don't have the Perahia, but Frankli mentioned A. Schiff, and I have a great live recording (ECM label), don't know his older records.

By the way, if you're not always keen on his Bach, beware of his Beethoven ... despite the fact that at the end of his life recorded more Beethoven than Bach, the first is totally ignored.

I'd like to listen your opinion, in fact...

I like Gould's Beethoven for all the wrong reasons - because he dares to take such an individual approach and plays Beethoven his way. I think he gets away with it because he was such a great artist blessed with a super human technique. Having said that it doesn't mean I would necessarily recommend his recordings, they are fine as an alternative to the traditional approach providing you are familiar with that approach.