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**Sorrano** · 10-02-2006, 07:20 PM

What do we know about Forster? Some background information might be helpful.

**Peter** · 10-02-2006, 08:59 PM

He was born in Niederstein, Silesia in 1748 and died in Vienna in 1823. He settled in Vienna in the 1780s and was highly respected as a musician - Mozart and Haydn were amongst his aquaintances. Beethoven also had a high opinion of him as a teacher for he recommended 'his old master' to Count Razumovsky, Charles Neate and Cipriani Potter. As a composer he is known chiefly for his 64 string quartets, some of which Beethoven not only played but also admired. Reviews of his Op.16 and Op.21 quartets sound more like they are referring to Beethoven 'bizarre ideas', 'personal involuntary humour', 'fire' and 'bold modulation'.

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'Man know thyself'

**Joy** · 10-02-2006, 09:01 PM

Here's a little background. He was born in Œcinawka Dolna, Poland (then Niedersteine), Jan. 26, 1748, died in Vienna, Nov. 12, 1823, composer and teacher; self-taught; from 1779 in Vienna. Highly esteemed by L.V. Beethoven.

His works include Chamber music; compositions for the piano. - Anleitung zum Generalbaß, 1805.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**Peter** · 10-02-2006, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Joy:
Anleitung zum Generalbaß, 1805.

This was a manual which contained references to some of Beethoven's works and apparently Förster was encouraged to publish this by Beethoven - (a little self publicity perhaps? - No I'm being too cynical these days!)

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'Man know thyself'

**Frankli** · 10-02-2006, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Peter:

This post is part of my on-going season of delving into the background influences on Beethoven so expect more in the future!

Nothing more interesting than that, and I am glad to provide you with anything that I can find.

According to the music encyclopedia "Die Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart" Förster stimulated the young Beethoven in several ways; they often met at Lichnowsky's to play music. Beethoven held him in high esteem.

The only Förster piece that I know is this one; I am sure that it must sound familiar to you! http://www.mysharefile.com/v/9264149/Foerster.mp3.html

I don't think that there are many other recordings, but I found one with three string quintets performed by the period ensemble Les Adieux. I'll post some of that next week or so.

**Peter** · 10-03-2006, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Frankli:
The only Förster piece that I know is this one; I am sure that it must sound familiar to you!

Good old Diabelli - our chance to hear music from 50 or so forgottens!

I've come across recordings of the quintets on Amazon, but considering the number of string quartets one would have thought more would be out there. Anyway this is what this thread is for, to discover these obscure and less well known influences. The next composer on my list is C.P.E.Bach, not obscure but not that well known.

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'Man know thyself'

**Frankli** · 10-03-2006, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Peter:

I've come across recordings of the quintets on Amazon, but considering the number of string quartets one would have thought more would be out there. Anyway this is what this thread is for, to discover these obscure and less well known influences. The next composer on my list is C.P.E.Bach, not obscure but not that well known.

My encyclopedia writes that Förster survived himself, and if so, that might be a reason that not many recordings exist of his works: he is good, but not good enough; craftmanship rather than genius.
I am curious about the quintets though.
And don't forget Albrechtsberger in your search for influences on Beethoven.

**Peter** · 10-03-2006, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Frankli:

And don't forget Albrechtsberger in your search for influences on Beethoven.

Indeed and a quick Amazon search reveals Albrechtsberger concertos for Trombone and for Jew's Harp - think Beethoven passed on that! He's certainly one I want to look at though, along with Neefe.

Moving on first to C.P.E.Bach do you have any good recordings of the Prussian and Wurtemburg sonatas and what is your rating of these pieces which seem to have had great influence on Haydn and Beethoven?

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'Man know thyself'

**Sorrano** · 10-03-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Indeed and a quick Amazon search reveals Albrechtsberger concertos for Trombone and for Jew's Harp - think Beethoven passed on that! He's certainly one I want to look at though, along with Neefe.

Moving on first to C.P.E.Bach do you have any good recordings of the Prussian and Wurtemburg sonatas and what is your rating of these pieces which seem to have had great influence on Haydn and Beethoven?

I've enjoyed what little of the symphonies that I've heard from C.P.E. Bach. From what I've heard he appears to be quite the innovative fellow and not afraid to take chances. I don't recall which symphony it is, but a great example is the D Major in which he ends in E-flat at the end of the first movement.

**Frankli** · 10-03-2006, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by Peter:

Moving on first to C.P.E.Bach do you have any good recordings of the Prussian and Wurtemburg sonatas and what is your rating of these pieces which seem to have had great influence on Haydn and Beethoven?

It's strange, but it seems that the two sets you mention are the least popular keyboard works by CPE. Also in my own collection, which contains a lot of CPE, there are only 3 of the 12 sonatas in these sets.
Years ago I had them all on lp in two boxes, played by Bob van Asperen, but I gave them away. I noticed though that they have been reissued on 3 cds. He is a good performer for this composer.

Listening to the three sonatas that I still got from these sets, the influence on Beethoven is not as obvious as, say, some of the Clementi sonatas. These works are not as eccentric as much of the later stuff, but more conventional, classical - which might exactly be the reason that they are not so well-known! Nevertheless very pleasant to listen to and full of invention.

**Joy** · 10-04-2006, 05:08 AM

Peter, don't forget to delve into Ludwig Van Beethoven (our Ludwig's grandfather) and Muzio Clementi (1752-1832)for influences on Beethoven. I'm looking forward to learning more about CPE Bach. For a connection between Bach and Clementi. C.P.E. Bach was a composer whose works Clementi studied with great care and whose works influenced Clementi's own style greatly.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**Peter** · 10-04-2006, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Joy:
Peter, don't forget to delve into Ludwig Van Beethoven (our Ludwig's grandfather) and Muzio Clementi (1752-1832)for influences on Beethoven. I'm looking forward to learning more about CPE Bach. For a connection between Bach and Clementi. C.P.E. Bach was a composer whose works Clementi studied with great care and whose works influenced Clementi's own style greatly.

I don't think there is anything by the grandfather still in existence (must be another conspiracy!) - Joy, you must have missed the thread on Clementi and Dussek, but quite right Clementi did have a great influence.

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'Man know thyself'

**Peter** · 10-04-2006, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Frankli:
It's strange, but it seems that the two sets you mention are the least popular keyboard works by CPE. Also in my own collection, which contains a lot of CPE, there are only 3 of the 12 sonatas in these sets.
Years ago I had them all on lp in two boxes, played by Bob van Asperen, but I gave them away. I noticed though that they have been reissued on 3 cds. He is a good performer for this composer.

Listening to the three sonatas that I still got from these sets, the influence on Beethoven is not as obvious as, say, some of the Clementi sonatas. These works are not as eccentric as much of the later stuff, but more conventional, classical - which might exactly be the reason that they are not so well-known! Nevertheless very pleasant to listen to and full of invention.

I searched on Amazon for Bob van Asperen's CPE but there is limited availability. What did come up was JS's 48 and I wonder if you've heard Asperen's account? I only ask as I'm in the process of buying a new set and any recommendations are welcome.

Back to CPE and there is a treatise by him on piano playing which Beethoven is said to have used extensively. Just before commencing the Missa Solemnis he wrote in the Tagebuch "do not forget [CPE] Bach's Litanies" - I wondered if any of these were in your collection?

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'Man know thyself'

**Frankli** · 10-04-2006, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
I searched on Amazon for Bob van Asperen's CPE but there is limited availability. What did come up was JS's 48 and I wonder if you've heard Asperen's account? I only ask as I'm in the process of buying a new set and any recommendations are welcome.

I don't know the Asperen; didn't even know that he recorded them.
He is a very skilled player (and a nice man), but sometimes wants to show it too much. I have no clue what he would make of the 48.
My own favorite recording is still the old one by Leonhardt. Not very spectacular, but just to the point.

Back to CPE and there is a treatise by him on piano playing which Beethoven is said to have used extensively. Just before commencing the Missa Solemnis he wrote in the Tagebuch "do not forget [CPE] Bach's Litanies" - I wondered if any of these were in your collection?

No, in fact not much of CPE's vocal output was ever recorded afaik. It took some time before I found the "Zwey Litaneyen" in the Wotquenne Verzeichnis. They are catalogued as WQ 204. Makes me curious as well. In which content did Beethoven mention them?

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 10-04-2006).]

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