Schubert Symphony No. 7

[HaydnFan]

I apologize if this is a stupid question but what happened to Schubert's Symphony No. 7? Is it missing?

[PDG]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
I apologize if this is a stupid question but what happened to Schubert's Symphony No. 7? Is it missing?

Hi Haydn (never thought I'd say that!). Schubert's Great Symphony, now known as no.9, was originally known as no.7, as the Unfinished (no.8) was thought to have been written after it. Then, many years passed and.................

........it turned out that the Great C major was actually composed after no.8, but since the Unfinished was by then very famous as no.8, it was deemed undesirable to upset its established number. Something had to give, and the original no.7 became no.9 so as not to upset the academics.

In truth, no.8 should really be no.7, and no.9 should be no.8.

Regarding no.9, we are left only with The Beatles' immortal uttering: "Turn Me On, Dead Man"....(Are you out there, Michael??...).

[Peter]

The numbering of Schubert's like Dvorak's symphonies is confusing but I think the work you are referring to is the E major. It gets even more confusing as I believe there was another E major symphony sketch from 1825 that has also been realised - this work though was in a much more embryonic form and reviews of the completion are not favourable. I should add that there is a so called complete set of 10 Schubert symphonies conducted by Neville Marriner which includes this 7th symphony.

From Wikipedia:

Schubert drafted a four-movement symphony in E major (D 729) in August 1821 but, though the work (which comprises 1340 bars) is structurally complete, he only orchestrated the slow introduction and the first 110 bars of the first movement. The rest of the work is however continued on 14-stave score pages as a melodic line with occasional basses or counterpoints, giving clues as to changes in orchestral texture.

Schubert seems to have laid the symphony aside in order to work on his opera Alfonso und Estrella, and never returned to it. The manuscript was given by Schubert's brother Ferdinand to Felix Mendelssohn and was subsequently acquired by Sir George Grove, who bequeathed it to the Royal College of Music in London. There are at least three completions - by John Barnett (1881), Felix Weingartner (1934) and Brian Newbould (1981). The work is now generally accepted to be Schubert's Seventh Symphony, an appellation which some scholars had preferred to leave for the chimerical 'Gastein Symphony' that was long believed to have been written and lost in 1824.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-20-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

Interesting, thank you very much!

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:
Hi Haydn (never thought I'd say that!). Schubert's Great Symphony, now known as no.9, was originally known as no.7, as the Unfinished (no.8) was thought to have been written after it. Then, many years passed and.................

........it turned out that the Great C major was actually composed after no.8, but since the Unfinished was by then very famous as no.8, it was deemed undesirable to upset its established number. Something had to give, and the original no.7 became no.9 so as not to upset the academics.

In truth, no.8 should really be no.7, and no.9 should be no.8.

Regarding no.9, we are left only with The Beatles' immortal uttering: "Turn Me On, Dead Man"....(Are you out there, Michael??...).

Thanks for clearing that up!


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 09-21-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Peter:


Schubert seems to have laid the symphony aside in order to work on his opera Alfonso und Estrella, and never returned to it. The manuscript was given by Schubert's brother Ferdinand to Felix Mendelssohn and was subsequently acquired by Sir George Grove, who bequeathed it to the Royal College of Music in London. There are at least three completions - by John Barnett (1881), Felix Weingartner (1934) and Brian Newbould (1981). The work is now generally accepted to be Schubert's Seventh Symphony, an appellation which some scholars had preferred to leave for the chimerical 'Gastein Symphony' that was long believed to have been written and lost in 1824.

It's not that simple. For the facts see:

Ernst Hilmar, Datierungsprobleme im Werk Schuberts, in Schubert-Kongress 1978, pp. 45-60.
Ernst Hilmar, Neue Funde, Daten und Dokumente zum symphonischen Werk Franz Schuberts, in Österreichische Musikzeitschrift 33 (1978), pp. 266-76.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
It's not that simple. For the facts see:

Ernst Hilmar, Datierungsprobleme im Werk Schuberts, in Schubert-Kongress 1978, pp. 45-60.
Ernst Hilmar, Neue Funde, Daten und Dokumente zum symphonischen Werk Franz Schuberts, in Österreichische Musikzeitschrift 33 (1978), pp. 266-76.

Thank you Cetto for pointing us in the right direction as always. Actually the words weren't mine, I was merely quoting Wikipedia.

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'Man know thyself'

[gprengel]

Dear HaydnFan,

I would very much recommend you to get this 7th symphony in E. It is indeed a wonderful work. Hoghtlights are the introduction, the lovely second theme of the 1st movement and especially the haunting second movement. Eventhough the piece is not finished by Schubert it is better than any symphony he wrote before the "Unfinshed".

In this discussion also another symphony in E allegedly from 1825 was mentioned. This one is indeed mysterious. This has a lot of passages which are so similiar to the 9th symohony that it is probably plagirised from someone else, but on the other hand there are a lot of very original elements which to me are breathtaking which also sound very much like Schubert for example an awseome Scherzo and beautiful slow movement. years ago I recorded it from a Radio program... I think it very much deserves to be heard!

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by gprengel:

In this discussion also another symphony in E allegedly from 1825 was mentioned. This one is indeed mysterious. This has a lot of passages which are so similiar to the 9th symohony that it is probably plagirised from someone else, but on the other hand there are a lot of very original elements which to me are breathtaking which also sound very much like Schubert for example an awseome Scherzo and beautiful slow movement. years ago I recorded it from a Radio program... I think it very much deserves to be heard!

Dear Gerd;

This "other symphony in E from 1825" has been declared by the New Schubert Edition as a fake. In the May 1993 edition of "The Musical Times," the world renown Schubert scholar Brian Newbould (yes, the same Brian Newbould who completed the "real" Schubert sketches of the symphony in E) reviewed a recording of "this other symphony in E from 1825." Professor Newbould categorically ruled that it was a fraud.


Hofrat

[PDG]

Yes, all is forgery! My original answer is the way that it is, full stop. Any unfinished sketches in E are merely diversionary...

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by PDG:
Yes, all is forgery! My original answer is the way that it is, full stop. Any unfinished sketches in E are merely diversionary...

Dear PDG;

The Schubert symphony in E (D.729) is considered as Schubert's 7th symphony. As realized by Professor Newbould, it is a beautiful work and is one of my favorite Schubert symphonies along with the his 10th symphony in D (D.936A), both of which show us a Schubert we have never heard before.

The "Schubert symphony in E from 1825," as recorded by the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra and proclaimed by them as a world premiere recording, IS A FORGERY!! And a hefty forgery at that, 2400 bars of music and 60 minutes of performing time. It is a hodge-podge of Schubertian melodies and I was able to identify themes from the 9th symphony in C major, the 8th symphony, the Octet, the Wanderer, Death and the Maiden, the Bb sonata, and a string quartet. If I knew Schubert better, I could probably find more. On several occasions I warned potential buyers on eBay that this recording is a fraud. Please beware!!


Hofrat

[Black Dog]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could recommend a recording for the 7th and 10th symphonies being discussed. As far as I can tell, Marriner's boxed set seems to be the only place the 7th is available, and he and Mackerras are the only ones who've recorded the 10th. Is this true? Thanks,

-Aaron-

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Black Dog:
Hi, I was wondering if anyone could recommend a recording for the 7th and 10th symphonies being discussed. As far as I can tell, Marriner's boxed set seems to be the only place the 7th is available, and he and Mackerras are the only ones who've recorded the 10th. Is this true? Thanks,

-Aaron-

Dear Aaron;

There is another recording of the Schubert 10th performed by Orchestre Philharmonique de Liege under the baton of Pierre Bartholomee (Ricercar label RIC 023003). I prefer the Mackerras recording over the Bartholomee (and you get some other interesting Schubert reconstructions with the Mackerras CD).

Hofrat

[Michael]

Originally posted by PDG:
Regarding no.9, we are left only with The Beatles' immortal uttering: "Turn Me On, Dead Man"....(Are you out there, Michael??...).

[/B]

You're thinking of the White Album, PDG! On the second last track, a disembodied voice keeps on repeating "Number Nine, Number Nine ......."
Strange .... that album came out in 1968 - the year I discovered Beethoven and the Ninth Symphony ...........
My God! It's all becoming clear to me now !!!!

Michael

P.S. Isn't Mozart missing a symphony number as well? 35 or 37 I think, and he wrote only an introduction to another one of them?????

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 10-05-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
P.S. Isn't Mozart missing a symphony number as well? 35 or 37 I think, and he wrote only an introduction to another one of them?????

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 10-05-2006).]

Yes 37, K.444 is just the introduction to a Michael Haydn symphony.

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'Man know thyself'