Beethoven Piano Concertos....

[HaydnFan]

Hi everyone....I have ALL 5 Beethoven piano concertos sitting here on my desk. I have (surprisingly) never listened to any except for the Adagio from Op.73...

...which shall I listen to first?

[sjwenger]

The fifth is the most popular, the most-often played. What joy, to have such a listening pleasure to look forward to!

Who is the pianist on your cds?

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[HaydnFan]

The pianist is Rudolf Serkin with Seiji Ozawa conducting the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

I don't know if you have heard this recording but Serkin butchers the beautiful initial descending scale in the Adagio in Op.73 (5th), possibly the most simple but most moving passage in any piano music ever written, but coming in late, thus pushing the first two notes close together and rushing the rest of the scale. He does not play this expressively either. It ruins the whole thing for me, I cannot listen to the rest of it...

I like when the pianist takes his/her time at this passage.

[Nightklavier]

Yea, I don't like Serkin at all. As for the Piano Concertos, my experience was No. 5 first. The 'Emperor' is simply the greatest piano concerto ever written. After that I went to No. 3 and 4 which come next as the greatest piano concertos; they should be listened to many many times. The largo movement from No. 1 is something you would definitely like if you love the adagio from No. 5.

[Rutradelusasa]

The first CD I ever bought was Weissenberg/Karajan doing the 5th. I was amazed by the Imortal Beloved soundtrack my mom had and the next time I went into a record shop I went to have a look at classical music, a first for me.
I got back to the apartment I was staying (I was on vacation in Rio, together with my mom and my sister - I was almost moving there and we went to take tests to enter new schools) and listened to it with my mom. I was amazed by it. I had only listened to the Adagio so far (from the soundtrack), but the first Allegro got me by the b*lls.
I say put 5 pieces of paper in front of you, each with a number, scramble them and pick one at random. You WILL be amazed, no matter which one you pick.

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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Hi everyone....I have ALL 5 Beethoven piano concertos ...which shall I listen to first?

Break into the 4th PC first! It is perhaps one of the finest pc's ever composed. In a startling departure from all convention Beethoven had the piano open the concerto followed in response by the orchestra. The middle movement is a passage through the composer's soul, while the 3rd movement is a dance of unbridled joy.

The next one that you should listen to is the first piano concerto (actually the 2nd but there's a story to that).

While a number of posters have suggested the Emperor concerto as your first bite... it's very nice and loud and stuff like that... and even had the 2nd movement used by Bernstein for the West Side Story song There's a Place Somewhere.

The 3rd pc is also good but not as jovial as the first pc... and the 2nd pc (actually the first but there's a story to that) is quite charming and engaging.

I hope this will help your selection process. Please do feed back.

[Preston]

A part I love and a part that brings tears to my eyes (by any means not the only part in the 4th Piano Concerto that brings tears to eyes), is in the first movement of the fourth piano concerto at about 9:20 seconds, where the music builds up then the strings and the flute rip away two times, then the strings rip away by themself, then the horns kick in very strongly and then the strings take over and rip the sound away, then the pianist comes in and the solo piano gets pounded.

It reminds me of a feelings of strength and also goodness, to keep fighting the struggle, to find the will and push on: for there is a greater purpose.

Does anybody know what part I am talking about?

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:

It reminds me of a feelings of strength and also goodness, to keep fighting the struggle, to find the will and push on: for there is a greater purpose.

Does anybody know what part I am talking about?

Kind Regards,
Preston

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 09-25-2006).]

I think you are describing wonderfully what is known as the recapitulation when the piano states the main theme fortissimo - Louis Spohr left a rather amusing account told to him by Seyfried concerning the first performance and the passage you refer to -

"Beethoven was playing a new piano concerto of his, but already at the first tutti, forgetting that he was soloist, he jumped up and began to conduct in his own peculiar fashion. At the first Sforzando he threw out his arms so wide that he knocked over both the lamps from the music stand of the piano. The audience laughed and Beethoven was so beside himself over this disturbance that he stopped the orchestra and made them start again. Seyfried, worried for fear that this would happen again, took the precaution of ordering two choirboys to stand next to Beethoven and hold the lamps. One of them innocently stepped closer and followed the music from the piano part. But when the fatal Sforzando burst forth, the poor boy received from Beethoven's right hand such a slap in the face that he dropped the lamp to the floor. The other, more wary boy, who had been anxiously following Beethoven's movements, succeeded in avoiding the blow by ducking in time. If the audience had laughed the first time, they now indulged in a truly bacchanalian riot. Beethoven broke out in such a fury that when he struck the first chord of the solo, he broke six strings. Every effort of the true music-lovers to restore calm and attention remained unavailing for some time; thus the first Allegro of the Concerto was completely lost to the audience."

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Hi everyone....I have ALL 5 Beethoven piano concertos sitting here on my desk. I have (surprisingly) never listened to any except for the Adagio from Op.73...

...which shall I listen to first?

How about going through in chronological order to get a sense of how Beethoven develops? Remember No.2 is really the first concerto.

Without doubt the 4th and 5th are the greatest, but they are all wonderful - the 4th is perhaps my favourite and you certainly have a treat in store!

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Thank you Peter, that means a lot. Also, thank you for the information on music. I am new to the study of music, if you could even call it that. I looked up recapitulation and it said this- "the modified restatement of the exposition following the development section in a sonata-form movement". I don't understand it, though. Hopefully I eventually will. I play some guitar. I know a little about scales and some stuff like that.

"forgetting that he was soloist"- My heart goes out to him.

"Every effort of the true music-lovers to restore calm and attention"- I love that part.

Thank you also, for the information on the 4th Piano Concerto, as told by Seyfried.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Agnes Selby]

Perhaps Serkin also forgot he was the soloist.

I heard Serkin perform many times
while my daughter studied at the Curtis
Institute od Music in Philadelphia. In live
performances he often forgot certain passages and made mistakes. His explanation:
"I am not a robot".

He was a marvellous teacher and his lectures opened my eyes to Beethoven's music. Philadelphia was richer for his presence there. Somehow his mistakes
did not detract from his artistry and his deep understanding of Beethoven's music.
We all react differently to a pianist's
performance and I love Serkin's Beethoven.

Regards,
Agnes.
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[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Thank you Peter, that means a lot. Also, thank you for the information on music. I am new to the study of music, if you could even call it that. I looked up recapitulation and it said this- "the modified restatement of the exposition following the development section in a sonata-form movement". I don't understand it, though. Hopefully I eventually will. I play some guitar. I know a little about scales and some stuff like that.

"forgetting that he was soloist"- My heart goes out to him.

"Every effort of the true music-lovers to restore calm and attention"- I love that part.

Thank you also, for the information on the 4th Piano Concerto, as told by Seyfried.

Kind Regards,
Preston

Preston although this isn't always the case there are basically 4 main sections to a piece of music written in what became known as 'Sonata form' - the most important form used by classical composers in most of their major works, particularly in the first movement.

1.Exposition - this is where two contrasting themes are presented for the first time, (sometimes only one theme is used as was often the case with Haydn). Often the composer requested the Exposition should be repeated but this is not always observed in performance.

2.Development - this is where the composer plays around with his themes in all sorts of clever ways and combinations, basically developing his initial ideas further and working out the possibilities contained within the original themes.

3.Recapitulation - This is where the original themes are restated pretty much as in the exposition but with different key changes and some other subtle differences.

4.Coda - this is the final closing section which is really a summing up of all that has gone before - Beethoven greatly expanded this section in his middle period works.

I hope that helps, because having that knowledge is very important in order to truly appeciate what you are listening to.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Ateach Asc:
Break into the 4th PC first! It is perhaps one of the finest pc's ever composed.

Perhaps one? Ah so you must rate the 5th the greatest pc ever composed as well. That's ok, I switch between the two also, depending on which one I am listening to...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

Perhaps Serkin also forgot he was the soloist.

I heard Serkin perform many times
while my daughter studied at the Curtis
Institute od Music in Philadelphia. In live
performances he often forgot certain passages and made mistakes. His explanation:
"I am not a robot".

He was a marvellous teacher and his lectures opened my eyes to Beethoven's music. Philadelphia was richer for his presence there. Somehow his mistakes
did not detract from his artistry and his deep understanding of Beethoven's music.
We all react differently to a pianist's
performance and I love Serkin's Beethoven.

Regards,
Agnes.
----------------

I recall some years ago a recorded Serkin performance on PBS in which he played the Choral Fantasy. Perhaps that which I remember best is that he was so absorbed in the music he looked like he was having a lot of fun. It made for an enjoyable program to watch and to listen.

[HaydnFan]

I think for me, I will need time to get used to these and begin to enjoy them, which is usually how it is for me...

...part of my problem is that I (and probably many more people) tend to compare pieces to the other works of the composer. I think that if we compared pieces outright between composers, we would never listen to anything but Mozart and Beethoven.

Compared to Beethoven's symphonies for example, which I am more familiar with, I do not like these piano concertos as much. I find them to be very much like his Violin Concerto, in that they seem to go on and on with no real sense of direction into a specific point in the future. Compare this with Mozart's piano concertos for example, where there is always a sense of momentum and assured destination. However, sometimes the former can be wonderful and there are some very nice passages in B's piano concerti.

Within the concerto realm, I also find Beethoven's orchestration to be either really soft/non-existant in the solo passages or extremely harsh.

If some of these pieces had been by other composers (like Schumann for example), I might think they were brilliant because I would be comparing to the other works of that composer (don't get me wrong, I love Schumann as well). I think I will just need time to get to know these and I may enjoy them more.