Beethoven Piano Concertos....

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Yes they do the same with Haydn and Mozart. But they articulate extremely well, while most quartets rush through the notes. The classical string quartet was strongly associated with conversation, and that's why I don't mind if the tempi are a bit slow. I even wonder if these aren't exactly the right tempi.
In their op. 132 (live recording from the radio), which is not as slow as Fitzwilliam, the timbre of the instruments works very well with the magical slow movement, where Beethoven explores pure sound.

I listened to your excerpt from the fugue, really too short for me to make much comment, come on Frank I provide you with whole movements. But I would say you could still go a fair bit quicker and still hear the two notes. It is too slow but I would have liked to have heard more for a proper assessment. Their playing with op132 is probably the most 'together' I have ever heard from a quartet, especially considering this is a very difficult piece. It is odd that the Fitzwilliam were not as big name as they should have been. Forget the Alban Berg!

I can suffer only a certain amount of moderation of tempo with Beethoven. After a certain point the performance becomes a disaster very easily. I did not know the Quator Mosaiques had concerned themselves with the late quartets, I hope if they do a recording they do a better job than they did with the 2 op18 cds. I'm sorry but I took one of them back to the shop I was so appauled by the tempi. I assessed the track timings and they looked slow but I still bought it so it was my own fault. The Turner Quartet I play now for Op18, very far from perfect, but adequate. I think op18 in some respects represent more of an interpretational challenge than the later pieces.

Concerning the Eroica Quartet of course I have the op74 and 95, they are on the same disk! Neither performances to be greatly recommended, only good in places.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-26-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
I listened to your excerpt from the fugue, really too short for me to make much comment, come on Frank I provide you with whole movements. But I would say you could still go a fair bit quicker and still hear the two notes. It is too slow but I would have liked to have heard more for a proper assessment.

The sample was just to show you how literally they take the score. It's very interesting actually; this way of notation (see http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/133.JPG ) can be found in Albrechtsberger's treatise on composition from 1790, chapter "fugue", which Al calls "interruptio", and it seems that this treatise, that Beethoven must have known very well, since he was one of Al's pupils, has been some point of departure for op. 133. But nobody plays it like Beethoven notated it! That is, except Fitzwilliam.
If you like the way they play opus 132, you should go for op. 130/133 as well, Rod. This is the full op. 133: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/1273799...op133.mp3.html

Their playing with op132 is probably the most 'together' I have ever heard from a quartet, especially considering this is a very difficult piece. It is odd that the Fitzwilliam were not as big name as they should have been. Forget the Alban Berg!

Oh well, my main complaint for Berg is that they are too perfect in the studio, which leaves little space for spontanity. The live recordings that were put on cd, however, are much different, and exciting.

I can suffer only a certain amount of moderation of tempo with Beethoven. After a certain point the performance becomes a disaster very easily. I did not know the Quator Mosaiques had concerned themselves with the late quartets, I hope if they do a recording they do a better job than they did with the 2 op18 cds. I'm sorry but I took one of them back to the shop I was so appauled by the tempi. I assessed the track timings and they looked slow but I still bought it so it was my own fault. The Turner Quartet I play now for Op18, very far from perfect, but adequate. I think op18 in some respects represent more of an interpretational challenge than the later pieces.

I must say, I compared the 3 "authentic" op. 18/1 1st mvt, that I've got (Mosaiques, Turner, Smithson), and yes, Mosaiques is slightly slower in this movement. But their phrasing, which, in my opinion, should be like Mozart's especially in the early works, is so much more intelligent, makes so much sense, that I prefer them over the others.

Considering op. 132: I'd say it has potential, but please practice a bit more lads, before you put it on cd! This is the last mvt. http://www.mysharefile.com/v/3377855...onato.mp3.html
My favorite moment: at 4:15, where a tornado is born out of nothing. It might be my imagination, but at 4:50 I hear a flywheel being turned around, faster and faster.


[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-27-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Well, I suppose you can count me as an "away" fan, I really don't care...because what I have said I will say again...from what I have heard, Beethoven is superior only in the art of symphony. With Piano Concerti, Mozart excels (again, my opinion might change). With other concerto forms, I would again, argue for Mozart. I prefer Haydn's religious music to most else...

...Haydn and Mozart are the Dynamic Duo with Schubert as side-kick.

...and I would have cut short the last six weeks of Beethoven's life so that Schubert could live for 10 more years...there, I said it. I know that Rod hates me now, haha.

A lot of us tend to wander "away" from time to time. I like to have a lot of variety of styles, but I always come "home" to Beethoven, whether it be symphonic, chamber, or piano (or whatever else) Beethoven had the last word as far as I am concerned. And as great as his symphonies were I think the quartets are even better. And the piano music is incomparable, etc. etc.

[HaydnFan]

Sorrano, you say Beethoven is "home" to you and I truly respect that. "Home" for me, is Mozart, Haydn, and Schubert. Some might rightly argue that the three are not vastly different, having many similarities. Anyway, it is good to have a "home".

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
A lot of us tend to wander "away" from time to time. I like to have a lot of variety of styles, but I always come "home" to Beethoven, whether it be symphonic, chamber, or piano (or whatever else) Beethoven had the last word as far as I am concerned. And as great as his symphonies were I think the quartets are even better. And the piano music is incomparable, etc. etc.

I feel the same Sorrano and it's nice to have a holiday once in a while, because you always appreciate home more after having been away - sometimes I go a short distance, but it's also great to travel a long way for a complete culture shock!

I also feel that tremendous as the big orchestral/choral works are, the sonatas and quartets are such personal statements that you really feel drawn into the inner world of Beethoven.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I must say, I compared the 3 "authentic" op. 18/1 1st mvt, that I've got (Mosaiques, Turner, Smithson), and yes, Mosaiques is slightly slower in this movement. But their phrasing, which, in my opinion, should be like Mozart's especially in the early works, is so much more intelligent, makes so much sense, that I prefer them over the others.

Considering op. 132: I'd say it has potential, but please practice a bit more lads, before you put it on cd! This is the last mvt. http://www.mysharefile.com/v/3377855...onato.mp3.html
My favorite moment: at 4:15, where a tornado is born out of nothing. It might be my imagination, but at 4:50 I hear a flywheel being turned around, faster and faster.


[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-27-2006).]

Thanks for the music Frank, I'll take it home and have a good listen before I respond.

I agree with your overall assesment of the 3 op18 interpreters, I have them all too, but sorry I need momentum when it is needed! Even the Turner 1st movement from op18nr1 is no way near Allegro con brio.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
A lot of us tend to wander "away" from time to time. I like to have a lot of variety of styles, but I always come "home" to Beethoven, whether it be symphonic, chamber, or piano (or whatever else) Beethoven had the last word as far as I am concerned. And as great as his symphonies were I think the quartets are even better. And the piano music is incomparable, etc. etc.

I agree with you Sorrano. I feel at 'home' with Beethoven too. I may wander also from time to time but it always feels great to be back home again and his music is such that I have to return.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
I agree with you Sorrano. I feel at 'home' with Beethoven too. I may wander also from time to time but it always feels great to be back home again and his music is such that I have to return.

By 'away fans' I was not really complaining about those who listen to other composers music - two thirds of my own 'A' list collection is by Handel! What I meant was those people who rate Beethoven supreme in maybe only one or two specific fields, or in fact no fields at all, who for some reason come here to roost.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-27-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

I'm sorry Rod, but that is a pretty weak argument you are trying to make...just because myself and possibly a few others believe that Beethoven was a great composer, in fact THE best in one or two genres, then our opinions are somehow invalid? Or that we don't believe that Beethoven is the greatest overall composer so we shouldn't bother coming here to post? (to "roost" as you say)

That is a pretty faulty argument...if you had everyone on the board in agreement that Beethoven is the king of all composers in EVERY or MOST genres, then the board would not be very interesting and members would be forced to talk about pointless topics...in my opinion, this is what has become of the MozartForum where anything arguing that Mozart was not the greatest would be shunned. Have you seen the topics that have come up there in the past while? That is why I do not post there frequently any more.

So, call me what you like, but I think the fact that I, and several other people, do not think Beethoven is the greatest in every genre makes for good conversation.

[Rod]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
I'm sorry Rod, but that is a pretty weak argument you are trying to make...just because myself and possibly a few others believe that Beethoven was a great composer, in fact THE best in one or two genres, then our opinions are somehow invalid? Or that we don't believe that Beethoven is the greatest overall composer so we shouldn't bother coming here to post? (to "roost" as you say)

That is a pretty faulty argument...if you had everyone on the board in agreement that Beethoven is the king of all composers in EVERY or MOST genres, then the board would not be very interesting and members would be forced to talk about pointless topics...in my opinion, this is what has become of the MozartForum where anything arguing that Mozart was not the greatest would be shunned. Have you seen the topics that have come up there in the past while? That is why I do not post there frequently any more.

So, call me what you like, but I think the fact that I, and several other people, do not think Beethoven is the greatest in every genre makes for good conversation.

I am not trying to make any argument whatsoever, it was a question! Why to people who rate Beethoven so lowly come to a Beethoven forum? It's a matter of grace and politeness - I wouldn't join a Bach or Wagner forum just to confont the poor beleagured souls there.

Believe me even hard core Beethoven fans have plenty of things to argue about amongst themselves. Years ago I was receiving death threats from B fans over my opinions regarding the fortepiano. I was thrown out of the best Handel forum there is solely because I stated I did not take 'modern' style Handel performances seriously (a most basic truth), not because I said anything bad about Handel or insulted anybody.. oh and I mentioned the plain and simple fact that Callas was an absolutely horrific soprano. See Haydn? Plenty of room for conflict even amongst the same tribe.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-27-2006).]

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Rod:
Years ago I was receiving death threats from B fans over my opinions regarding the fortepiano.

What?? Death threats?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I am not trying to make any argument whatsoever, it was a question! Why to people who rate Beethoven so lowly come to a Beethoven forum? It's a matter of grace and politeness - I wouldn't join a Bach or Wagner forum just to confont the poor beleagured souls there.

Haydnfan is not saying he rates Beethoven 'lowly' nor are other people here who also happen to admire the music of other composers. I don't see that to be a member of a Beethoven forum you are forbidden to utter the slightest criticism of Beethoven's music or to prefer another work by someone else. I am actually quite fascinated by the differences in people's perspectives and the way certain works effect them and others do not. It does seem to be all or nothing with you Rod but that isn't the way I or many others experience 'classical' music.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-27-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Haydnfan is not saying he rates Beethoven 'lowly' nor are other people here who also happen to admire the music of other composers. I don't see that to be a member of a Beethoven forum you are forbidden to utter the slightest criticism of Beethoven's music or to prefer another work by someone else. I am actually quite fascinated by the differences in people's perspectives and the way certain works effect them and others do not. It does seem to be all or nothing with you Rod but that isn't the way I or many others experience 'classical' music.

Peter perhaps you have not been paying attention to many of the things that have been written here, but that is your prerogative. You yourself have no less of a mean streak Peter, if this was my forum Robert would still be here. But that is old news. Then what about your reaction to the 'Count's' critisism of your addresses page..?

I have said from day one I am not a classical music fan in the general sence. I am here for one reason and one reason only. I am just surprised people can come here and and have the audacity to say Beethoven only excelled at the symphony or whatever, something more crazy than any of Robert's notions. But hey what do I know. But as long as people don't mind being put in their place, I would accommodate any opinion however eronious.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-28-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I must say, I compared the 3 "authentic" op. 18/1 1st mvt, that I've got (Mosaiques, Turner, Smithson), and yes, Mosaiques is slightly slower in this movement. But their phrasing, which, in my opinion, should be like Mozart's especially in the early works, is so much more intelligent, makes so much sense, that I prefer them over the others.

Considering op. 132: I'd say it has potential, but please practice a bit more lads, before you put it on cd! This is the last mvt. http://www.mysharefile.com/v/3377855...onato.mp3.html
My favorite moment: at 4:15, where a tornado is born out of nothing. It might be my imagination, but at 4:50 I hear a flywheel being turned around, faster and faster.


[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-27-2006).]

Frank the fugue is too slow, there's no other way of looking at it. Emphasising a single musical point has resulted in the whole thing becomming a labour. It reminds me of what the Eroica Quartet did with the scherzo from op135.

The op132 track was much more to my taste, not a million miles from the Fitzwillaim performance, though the inner parts have more prominence with the Mosaiques effort and yes some interesting details emerge here and there. Thanks.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-29-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
What?? Death threats?

Why yes, it is a serious business when you undermine some people's whole concept of music.

But I am reminded of a rather angry exchange of emails I had with the music professor and fortepianist Malcolm Bilson. I critisised his promotion of the idea that additional notes can be improvised when performing Beethoven sonatas etc, an obscenity that has become increasingly popular in recent years amongst the fortepianists. Of course the professor was simply wrong and is a disgrace to his profession for even considering the idea, but before he ceased communication I recall he did admit that at some musical conventions actual blows had been exchanged over the matter. And so they should have.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-28-2006).]