Beethoven Piano Concertos....

[Chris]

If Beethoven lacks in any type of piece, I believe it is the concerto. For anything else, Beethoven far surpasses everyone else. Symphonies, string quartets, piano sonatas...even the best works from other composers do not compare. I could live very happily if I had only works by Beethoven for these types of pieces. Even opera. I love Mozart's operas, but I think the greatness achieved by Beethoven in his sole effort in opera is enough that if I could only ever listen to Fidelio again, and no other opera, I would be satisifed.

But, even though Beethoven's concertos are brilliant, they don't blow away his competition like his other pieces. Sometimes I need some Mozart, Tchaikovsky, and Mendelssohn to get my concerto fix.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
If Beethoven lacks in any type of piece, I believe it is the concerto...

But, even though Beethoven's concertos are brilliant, they don't blow away his competition like his other pieces. Sometimes I need some Mozart, Tchaikovsky, and Mendelssohn to get my concerto fix.

No way! NO WAY HOSAY! But then I've heard things you have never heard. But even then you see resorting to Tchaikovsy and Mendelssohn especially as an improvement??

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
No way! NO WAY HOSAY! But then I've heard things you have never heard. But even then you see resorting to Tchaikovsy and Mendelssohn especially as an improvement??

I am not making any direct comparisons between the pieces or composers. I am only stating that Beethoven's concerto's alone are not enough to satisfy my concerto needs. Even if I grant that the "Emperor" is the finest piano conerto ever written, it does not shine so far above Tchaikovsy's No. 1 or Mozart's No. 23 that I can forsake these other fine works.

[HaydnFan]

Really? Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 23? For me, I don't know if Mozart has one particular piano concerto that shines above all the others...each has their own sparkle; A movement that blows you away...No. 22 (3rd), No. 20 (1st), No. 13 (1st), No. 21 (2nd), No. 9 (1st).

Anyway, again, I will have to get used to these Beethoven piano concertos.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
No way! NO WAY HOSAY! But then I've heard things you have never heard. But even then you see resorting to Tchaikovsy and Mendelssohn especially as an improvement??

The Beethoven pc's are certainly good efforts, especially with a striking originality in 4 and 5. But in the long run the last eight Mozart concerti (from KV 466 on) are richer in their variety, in their moods, in their subtle shift of emotions and last but not least, in their beauty.
I am happy that I don't have to choose though.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
...But in the long run the last eight Mozart concerti (from KV 466 on) are richer in their variety, in their moods, in their subtle shift of emotions and last but not least, in their beauty.

You must be kidding? But then you rate Schubert as more advanced than Beethoven so I should not be surprised, Beethoven's are more focused efforts, solid as mountains. I could easily say much of Mozart's material sounds so ambiguous in comparison, in fact I think I did just do that. But I am sure you have never heard the real Beethoven piano concertos. I have heard things you have not...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I am not making any direct comparisons between the pieces or composers. I am only stating that Beethoven's concerto's alone are not enough to satisfy my concerto needs. Even if I grant that the "Emperor" is the finest piano conerto ever written, it does not shine so far above Tchaikovsy's No. 1 or Mozart's No. 23 that I can forsake these other fine works.

If you heard the recording of No5 that I have been promoting here for some time, you might think it was the greatest thing he ever wrote! With respect you have long voiced in favour of an idea of Beethoven that to my mind effectively crucifies his music, and then you have the audacity to say that Tchaikovsky can do better.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
You must be kidding? But then you rate Schubert as more advanced than Beethoven so I should not be surprised,

Schubert more advanced? In what respect? In modulating he is, but considering form Schubert was a conservative. Had he only lived 10 years longer.... I would have given six weeks (the last six) of Beethoven's life for that.

Beethoven's are more focused efforts, solid as mountains.

I wouldn't call 1 to 3 "focused efforts". Unless you mean that he was focused on Mozart when he wrote them - which is quite understandable. They are certainly not bad though.

I could easily say much of Mozart's material sounds so ambiguous in comparison, in fact I think I did just do that.

The thing with Mozart is that unlike Beethoven he wasn't experimental by nature. Nevertheless in each concerto he invented new things.
The Mozart concerti are really amazing. So many things happen that would seem impossible. Such variety underneath the seeming conventionalism...
But possibly I have heard things that you have not.

But I am sure you have never heard the real Beethoven piano concertos. I have heard things you have not...

I searched a bit. You mean the Schoonderwoerd 4 and 5? Yes, especially 5 shows the work in a different light, heroic though as it is. And of course the cd is in my cupboard. If they are the real piano concertos? I don't believe in real piano concertos.

[HaydnFan]

Rod, I disagree with you here about Mozart's piano concerti but I know you do not care...

...anyway, for the record, I don't think Mozart's PC's sound ambiguous at all! Quite the contrary! They are full of melody that is instantly recognizable...however, as you say, there are certain movements that upon hearing them, they are clearly Mozart, but one is unable to place them to any particular piece. The movements which I was discussing above are different. When you hear the opening movement of the Piano Concerto No. 20 for example or the 3rd movement of of No. 27, you immediately know what it is.

Sorry if I have been rambling. In short, I prefer Mozart's piano concerti at the moment to Beethoven's but this might change over time, who knows.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I searched a bit. You mean the Schoonderwoerd 4 and 5? Yes, especially 5 shows the work in a different light, heroic though as it is. And of course the cd is in my cupboard. If they are the real piano concertos? I don't believe in real piano concertos.

What is a real piano concerto to you? Did not the Fritz appeal to you when Beethoven is performed using one? I think No4 is not so hot in this recording, only the finale I like a great deal. With no5 the first movement in particular reveals, uniquely from what I have heard, the true revolutionary nature of the music. The Adagio is not performed with quite the same level of thought, but overall it is light years the best available. I doubt I will ever buy another no5.

Concerning Schubert, you tell me? You said it here yourself. It is a strange thing to say that you would have sacrificed the last six weeks of Beethoven's life if it meant that Schubert could have lived 10 years more, nobody can say here I am the strange one!

By focused efforts I means structurally focused, as is typical with all Beethoven. They are all more focused relative to Mozart's model. I think the first 3 are of of the very first rate also, especially on the impossibly rare occasion you hear them played at the correct tempo.

To be honest I prefer Mozart's violin concerto's to the fp ones I've heard. I agree some of the M pieces contain a some interesting and characteristic things, whereas others, including many of the vocal works, sound totally neutral to my ears. But I think Beethoven developed the better musical solution, even in his very early days. I prefer Beethoven's juvenile piano quartets to any chamber piece I've heard from Mozart.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Rod, I disagree with you here about Mozart's piano concerti but I know you do not care...

...anyway, for the record, I don't think Mozart's PC's sound ambiguous at all! Quite the contrary! They are full of melody that is instantly recognizable...however, as you say, there are certain movements that upon hearing them, they are clearly Mozart, but one is unable to place them to any particular piece. The movements which I was discussing above are different. When you hear the opening movement of the Piano Concerto No. 20 for example or the 3rd movement of of No. 27, you immediately know what it is.

Sorry if I have been rambling. In short, I prefer Mozart's piano concerti at the moment to Beethoven's but this might change over time, who knows.

Hardly a ramble, but I suggest what you have heard of B's concertos and my ideal of them are something totally different. The kind of Beethoven they usually play on Classic FM I turn off if I hear it, I cannot understate this point.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Nightklavier]

I can't compare Romantic piano concertos like Tchaikovsky or Mendelssohn because to me there is too much of a difference in styles. It's like comparing Rachmaninoff No. 3 to Beethoven No. 1; it doesn't work. However, comparing Beethoven to Mozart, Hummel, Ries, Czerny, or Moscheles does work. And Mozart, Hummel, Ries and Moscheles write some good piano concertos; let's call them "good novels."

Beethoven's piano concertos, however, are "great literature."

I don't need Rod's recordings to hear that; a budget priced $2.99 disc with the 4th PC played by some amateur symphony orchestra is enough to pummel the most expensive Complete Piano Concertos of Mozart into the ground. I know that sounds harsh, and I don't dismiss Mozart, but Beethoven's just excel in every aspect far beyond Wolfy or anyone else in his time.

I'm no musicologist or learned musician, but as an amateur listener, I think Beethoven's orchestration is more advanced and articulated than Mozart or Ries. His pianist effects, the textures that are produced, the virtuosity combined with intelligent introspection is so plainly evident enough, that not even Mozart's monumental No. 23 can relate. Mozart's PCs are certainly gems, but each Beethoven PC is a nearly flawless work of art; he perfected the String Quartet and Piano Sonata and I think he does it with the *classical* Piano Concerto, too.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
What is a real piano concerto to you? Did not the Fritz appeal to you when Beethoven is performed using one? I think No4 is not so hot in this recording, only the finale I like a great deal. With no5 the first movement in particular reveals, uniquely from what I have heard, the true revolutionary nature of the music. The Adagio is not performed with quite the same level of thought, but overall it is light years the best available. I doubt I will ever buy another no5.

Yes, the Fritz is the near perfect instrument, but in music there is more than the piano.
I once had a neighbour, passionate about classical music, who strived for acquiring the best recording of the music that there was.
I somehow felt that he missed the point.
Time changes Rod; people change. One day you'll buy another 5. It will be a 5 that you'll make feel like that you'll never need to buy another 5. Shall we bet on that?

Concerning Schubert, you tell me? You said it here yourself. It is a strange thing to say that you would have sacrificed the last six weeks of Beethoven's life if it meant that Schubert could have lived 10 years more, nobody can say here I am the strange one!

Just kidding, though how sad that Schubert died at 31. He was for sure predestined to change the course of music even more than he has done now.
Anyway: did I say somewhere literally: "Schubert is more advanced than Beethoven"? I doubt that!

By focused efforts I means structurally focused, as is typical with all Beethoven. They are all more focused relative to Mozart's model. I think the first 3 are of of the very first rate also, especially on the impossibly rare occasion you hear them played at the correct tempo.

Well, not too slow, that's for sure. Especially 1 and 2 are typical pianist's compositions, and no doubt Beethoven wanted to show his skill.

To be honest I prefer Mozart's violin concerto's to the fp ones I've heard. I agree some of the M pieces contain a some interesting and characteristic things, whereas others, including many of the vocal works, sound totaly neutral. But I think Beethoven developed the better musical solution, even in his very early days. I prefer Beethoven's juvenile piano quartets to any chamber piece I've heard from Mozart.

Not me!
Beethoven I liked from the age of 13 on. It took me 10 years more to understand and hear that there is nothing "neutral" to Mozart. But in Mozart it all happens on a different level, musically and psychologically. I think that Beethoven quite understood Mozart's greatness. And part of Beethoven's greatness is that he searched and found his own way.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
If you heard the recording of No5 that I have been promoting here for some time, you might think it was the greatest thing he ever wrote!

What matters is the notes on the page. The strength or weakness of any particular performance is not the issue.

With respect you have long voiced in favour of an idea of Beethoven that to my mind effectively crucifies his music...

And I would say the same to you! Except for spelling it "favor" that is...

...and then you have the audacity to say that Tchaikovsky can do better.

And yet I did not say that anywhere. I even specifically said that I didn't say that. What I did say was simply that Beethoven's concertos are not enough to make me forget the efforts of others, as his other works are able to.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 09-26-2006).]

[DavidO]

My favorite recording of the Piano Concerto No. 5 by Friedrich Gulda with the Vienna Phil conducted by Maestro Szell (my favorite Beethoven conductor, all told). It was recorded live in 1966 & is available on the Andante label, along with a really cool video of the same performance (as well as Bach's Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue).