Has Karl suffered violence from Beethoven?

[Zauber]

In the book "BEETHOVEN", Maynard Solomon, the author refers sometimes that beethoven injured Karl sometimes. Was that true?

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Deine Zauber binder wieder

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Zauber:
In the book "BEETHOVEN", Maynard Solomon, the author refers sometimes that beethoven injured Karl sometimes. Was that true?

It must have been a very stressful time for Karl. He was removed from the family home after his father's death, denied all contact with his mother (which he also heard many rumours about her alleged conduct), placed in the care of an older uncle, who may have been well intentioned and loving, but was bad tempered, deaf and in declining health. Beethoven was therefore unable to deal sympathetically with the boy. Karl was subjected to frequent reproaches of lack of affection and gratitude and struggled to meet his uncle's expectations. Karl was therefore exposed over the years to a multitude of pressures.

However in 1817, as you may have read in Solomon, Beethoven authorised and indeed encouraged Giannattasio to beat Karl 'to enforce the strictest obedience’. He wrote to the headmaster ‘I have already told you how during his father’s lifetime he would obey only when he was beaten. Of course that was very wrong, but that was how things were done and we must not forget it’.

Solomon also conveys that Beethoven used physical violence against Karl on more then one occasion to try and prevent the boy from seeing his mother.

Read what you may into Beethoven’s letter of 1817 to the headmaster!!

Is it no wonder the poor boy tried to kill himself.


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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[This message has been edited by Fidelio (edited 09-26-2006).]

[~Immortal Beloved~]

What???... that's not true!

[Rod]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
What???... that's not true!

Karl certainly tried to shot himself in the head. Lucky for him he was a bad shot, unless it was only a half hearted attempt.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
What???... that's not true!

Karl attempted suicide probably on 6 August 1826 in the ruins of Rauhenstein Castle near Baden. He sold his watch to purchase two new pistols after his landlord Schlemmer heard about his plan and removed the original pistol. The first bullet missed, the second only injured him, leaving a bad wound.

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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Agnes Selby]

Karl married Caroline Naske. They had
2 daughters and one son, named Ludwig.
Karl never saw his uncle again but attended his funeral.

Ludwig migrated to America and was employed
until his death by the Central Railroad Company of Detroit. He married the concert pianist, Maria Nitche. They had one son,
Karl Julius who died without issue.

Agnes.

[~Immortal Beloved~]

*eyes rolled* I know he tried to kill himself.. why throwing beethoven bad lies abusing him. That's nonsense.

[Peter]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
*eyes rolled* I know he tried to kill himself.. why throwing beethoven bad lies abusing him. That's nonsense.

It depends on how you look at it - there are many forms of abuse, and in this case I have no doubt that Beethoven loved karl and wanted what he considered the best for the child. Unfortunately in attempting to deprive him of his mother (and even turn him against her) he did enormous psychological damage to the boy. Beethoven simply was not suited to being a single parent, especially as his deafness led to greater paranoia. As for physically beating karl, this form of discipline was considered acceptable well into the 20th century.

Schindler has been heavily criticised for blackening the names of all Beethoven's relatives, especially karl - he simply would not allow criticism of Beethoven himself. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle and Karl's behaviour most likely was bad at times, but as a consequence of the long running battle between his uncle and his mother. Beethoven may well have had good grounds for his beliefs that Johanna was not a suitably 'moral' person to bring up his nephew, but he would have done better to have heeded his brother's wishes to share the responsibility with Johanna.

The final tragedy played out in August 1826 and it nearly resulted in Karl's death and hastened Beethoven's own decline. Beethoven was shocked to the core by this and he probably realised that his possessive love for karl had actually brought him to the point of suicide.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-27-2006).]

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
*eyes rolled* I know he tried to kill himself.. why throwing beethoven bad lies abusing him. That's nonsense.

...and your reasons for saying this are....?



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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Zauber]

Oh guys, I love Beethoven. The topic posted was not because i hate him, the contrary.........it's because i love him and i want to know more about his life, in all aspects.

I'm not crazy to join in a Beethoven's comunity to destroy his reputation, and talking about LvB I NEVER LIE. I am a lover of the truth and moral!!!!!!

UNFORTUNATELY, SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME........
>:-(

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Deine Zauber...


[This message has been edited by Zauber (edited 09-27-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zauber:
Oh guys, I love Beethoven. The topic posted was not because i hate him, the contrary.........it's because i love him and i want to know more about his life, in all aspects.

I'm not crazy to join in a Beethoven's comunity to destroy his reputation, and talking about LvB I NEVER LIE. I am a lover of the truth and moral!!!!!!

UNFORTUNATELY, SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME........
>:-(

###################&&&&&********************

Deine Zauber...


[This message has been edited by Zauber (edited 09-27-2006).]

Zauber, no one questions your admiration for Beethoven by raising this topic. It is a difficult area and I hope my previous post helps.


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'Man know thyself'

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

Karl married Caroline Naske. They had
2 daughters and one son, named Ludwig.
Karl never saw his uncle again but attended his funeral.

Ludwig migrated to America and was employed
until his death by the Central Railroad Company of Detroit. He married the concert pianist, Maria Nitche. They had one son,
Karl Julius who died without issue.

Agnes.

Hate to be picky, but Karl and Karolina had five children:
Karoline Johanna (1831-1919), Maria Anna (1835-91), Ludwig Johann (b.1839-d.between 1890 & 1916), Gabriele (1844-1914) and Hermine (1852-87).





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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
As for physically beating karl, this form of discipline was considered acceptable well into the 20th century.

Hopefully not acceptable now although still being practiced in many areas many times unfortunately. I agree with your entire post, well said.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Roehre]

In letter Brandenburg 1152 (only a fragment has survived, most likely the letter was sent at the beginning of August 1817) to Giannattasio del Rio, we read:

"was Karl betrift, so bitte ich sie ihn zum püncktlichsten gehorsam anzuhalten, u. sogleich wo er ihnen nicht folgt ... zu bestrafen, behandelen sie ihn lieber, wie sie ihr eigenes Kind behandlen würden, u. nicht wie einen Zögling, denn ich habe ihnen schon bemerkt, daß er gewohnt war nur durch schläge gezwungen bey seines vaters Lebzeiten zu folgen, dies war mir sehr übel, allein Es war nun einmal nicht anders, u. man darf dieses nicht vergeßen"

which simply translates as:
"As far as Karl is concerned, I beg you to demand his strictest obedience, and to punish him as soon as he doesn't folow your instructions, I prefer him to be treated as your own child and not like a baby, as I soon found out that he obeyed only when being beaten as his father was still alive, which made me worry, but unfortunately that is how it was, and one shouldn't forget this"

Consequently, Karl was beaten by his father, and as it was standard practice in education then, by B himself and without any doubt at boarding school as well.

But I must say, that this was far from unusual, and the discussions as these have survived in the court records and -more importantly- in the Konversationshefte make it fully clear, that Beethoven was prepared to give the young lad the best he could (in his opinion, but nevertheless): the best teachers, the best schools etc, as long as Karl's mother stayed away or wasn't allowed to see her child. Beethoven was even convinced by his friends, that it might be better to accept a co-guardian, or to cease his own guardianship altogether, if this meant it were better for Karl as well as permantely removing him from the influence of his mother.

Let us not forget that Karl was in puberty during these first years of the 1820s, and showed typically puberal behaviour, of which a couple of passages in the conversationbooklets show compelling evidence - as they do of Beethoven's incapabillity to understand this kind of behaviour.
(As soon as I've got the time to find and translate the pages I've in my mind at the moment I'll give an example of such a discussion in which you see both parties getting angrier and angrier until the explosion follows)

[Peter]

as long as Karl's mother stayed away or wasn't allowed to see her child. Beethoven was even convinced by his friends, that it might be better to accept a co-guardian, or to cease his own guardianship altogether, if this meant it were better for Karl as well as permantely removing him from the influence of his mother.

Therein lies the real abuse - the terrible blackening of the mother's name and attempting to turn a young child against her. I've no doubt Beethoven believed he was acting in Karl's best interest but he wasn't being entirely honest with himself regarding his own motives - he desperately wanted to feel that he was the boy's true father and this was not possible with Johanna on the scene. The enormous psychological damage done to Karl resulted in his future miscreant behaviour and led to the botched suicide attempt with the demolition of all Beethoven's hopes for him.