Clementi and Dussek

[Peter]

Much is made of the great influence of Haydn and Mozart on the early Beethoven, but to my mind the influence of Clementi and Dussek is just as great if not more so. I am not over familiar with the works of either (bar a few teaching sonatinas), but from looking at examples in the Beethoven companion, the thematic and mood resemblances in many cases are striking, particularly in the early sonatas, but also in other works such as the Eroica - for example the bold opening of the finale is foreshadowed in Clementi as is the variation theme itself.

Clementi's Sonata in F minor Op.13 no.6 (1784) contains a passage in its 1st movt development section that according to the Beethoven companion is so uncharacteristic of either Mozart, Haydn or the 18th century in general but is a typical feature of Beethoven - "the effect of this Clementi sonata, the world, atmosphere and language it presents so graphically, spreads out over the whole of Beethoven's first period, with very few exceptions."

I think it refreshing and far more rewarding than some recent distractions here to be able to look at these very real influences on early Beethoven in more detail.

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'Man know thyself'

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Much is made of the great influence of Haydn and Mozart on the early Beethoven, but to my mind the influence of Clementi and Dussek is just as great if not more so. I am not over familiar with the works of either (bar a few teaching sonatinas), but from looking at examples in the Beethoven companion, the thematic and mood resemblances in many cases are striking, particularly in the early sonatas, but also in other works such as the Eroica - for example the bold opening of the finale is foreshadowed in Clementi as is the variation theme itself.

The influence from both Clementi and Dussek becomes clear after listening to just a few piano works by these men. Still there is much difference between Clementi and Dussek. The latter writes in a lyrical, melodious style, even in his earlier works.
A nice example btw is his beautiful sonata op. 44 "The Farewell" (dedicated to Clementi when Dussek left England). It's hard not to see this work as a direct influence to Beethoven sonata op. 81a, composed some 10 years later.
Many of Dussek's later works fail to keep my attention, where sonata form is loosened in favor of a romantical style, with a tiresome chromatism here and there.

Clementi, in contrast, has this condensed way of writing in his earlier works: not a note too much. I must say that apart from that, he also wrote a lot of rubbish.
A while ago I mentioned the comparison between the thematical organization of his sonata op. 34/2 and Beethoven symphony 5, 1st mvt - working links to examples can still be found on this forum.
I was baffled when I read all the examples in the Beethoven Companion many years ago; I had no clue who Dussek and Clementi were. How could it be that they were hardly if ever mentioned in the books about Beethoven that I had read sofar? By now, after having heard a few dozen of their works, I know better.

Clementi's Sonata in F minor Op.13 no.6 (1784) contains a passage in its 1st movt development section that according to the Beethoven companion is so uncharacteristic of either Mozart, Haydn or the 18th century in general but is a typical feature of Beethoven - "the effect of this Clementi sonata, the world, atmosphere and language it presents so graphically, spreads out over the whole of Beethoven's first period, with very few exceptions."

This sonata also has a beautiful slow movement reminescent to Beethoven's op. 10/3.
This is the 1st movement that you mentioned, played on a square piano from the Clementi factory:
http://download.yousendit.com/14B37B4E48BEB0C2

[Fidelio]

Beethoven thought highly of Clementi's Piano Sonatas (unlike Mozart) and had great admiration for him, especially during Beethoven's second period, when he followed Clementi's lead in pianistic style and thematic inspiration as well. Beethoven also had a high regard for Clementi's 'Introduction to the Art of Playing on the pianoforte' (1801), as he tried to obtain a copy for the young Gerhard von Breuning. He is buried at Westminster Abbey.


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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
The influence from both Clementi and Dussek becomes clear after listening to just a few piano works by these men. Still there is much difference between Clementi and Dussek. The latter writes in a lyrical, melodious style, even in his earlier works.
A nice example btw is his beautiful sonata op. 44 "The Farewell" (dedicated to Clementi when Dussek left England). It's hard not to see this work as a direct influence to Beethoven sonata op. 81a, composed some 10 years later.
Many of Dussek's later works fail to keep my attention, where sonata form is loosened in favor of a romantical style, with a tiresome chromatism here and there.

Thank you Frankli this is just what I was looking for - I have only briefly listened to excerpts of Clementi and Dussek and my impressions are just the same as yours - Dussek seems to be going down the Romantic road to me (perhaps under the influence of Hummel's style?), certainly off at a different tangent from Clementi and ultimately it seems to me the Clementi influence is stronger in Beethoven. Thanks for your recommendations for Clementi sonatas which I will look out - he certainly is a far greater composer than he is given recognition for and his very real influence on Beethoven is often glossed over in favour of Mozart and Haydn. Having siad that I wasn't over impressed with his symphonies, but I only listened to them once!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-23-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Thank you Frankli this is just what I was looking for - I have only briefly listened to excerpts of Clementi and Dussek and my impressions are just the same as yours - Dussek seems to be going down the Romantic road to me (perhaps under the influence of Hummel's style?), certainly off at a different tangent from Clementi and ultimately it seems to me the Clementi influence is stronger in Beethoven. Thanks for your recommendations for Clementi sonatas which I will look out - he certainly is a far greater composer than he is given recognition for and his very real influence on Beethoven is often glossed over in favour of Mozart and Haydn. Having siad that I wasn't over impressed with his symphonies, but I only listened to them once!

I have a recording of two of his symphonies but I am not very fond of them as well - perhaps they are waiting for a really good performance!

Having gone through the cds in my cupboard I found this early short Dussek sonata from 1790, which really has the same dramatic, concentrated, and slightly heroic atmosphere as some of the early Beethoven sonatas. Don't miss the great opening theme; so simple, but what he does with it!:
http://download.yousendit.com/3E77568D6C5C2FA2

Also interesting to see is how Clementi developed later in his life. Like with everybody else the gap between his style and Beethoven's grew wider and wider. I have some of his later works for piano, like the beautiful tragical but lengthy sonata "Didone abbandonata" from 1821, and the bagatelle-like short pieces from the same year called "Monferrinas", and my impression is that all these composers, including Beethoven, had had it with the traditional sonata form, and all tried new ways, escapes from the old form. Dussek, Clementi, Hummel, etc. turned into true romantics with the weakening of structure as a result, while Beethoven... well, I wouldn't know how to describe his late style.

Anyhow, here is the 2nd movement from Clementi's op. 13/6, which resembles some of Beethoven's slow movements, except that Beethoven goes on (op. 10/3) where Clementi stops.
http://download.yousendit.com/78A6A2926D3DBAFD

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I have a recording of two of his symphonies but I am not very fond of them as well - perhaps they are waiting for a really good performance!

Having gone through the cds in my cupboard I found this early short Dussek sonata from 1790, which really has the same dramatic, concentrated, and slightly heroic atmosphere as some of the early Beethoven sonatas. Don't miss the great opening theme; so simple, but what he does with it!:
http://download.yousendit.com/3E77568D6C5C2FA2

Also interesting to see is how Clementi developed later in his life. Like with everybody else the gap between his style and Beethoven's grew wider and wider. I have some of his later works for piano, like the beautiful tragical but lengthy sonata "Didone abbandonata" from 1821, and the bagatelle-like short pieces from the same year called "Monferrinas", and my impression is that all these composers, including Beethoven, had had it with the traditional sonata form, and all tried new ways, escapes from the old form. Dussek, Clementi, Hummel, etc. turned into true romantics with the weakening of structure as a result, while Beethoven... well, I wouldn't know how to describe his late style.

Anyhow, here is the 2nd movement from Clementi's op. 13/6, which resembles some of Beethoven's slow movements, except that Beethoven goes on (op. 10/3) where Clementi stops.
http://download.yousendit.com/78A6A2926D3DBAFD

Thanks Frankli I'm looking forward to listening these, but they'll have to wait until Monday as I'm away tomorrow!

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'Man know thyself'

[Agnes Selby]

Dear Peter,

Your suggestion that Jan Ladislav Dussek
influenced Beethoven's compositions is most interesting.

I will have to listen to Dussek's works more carefully as so far I have been impressed only with his pre-Romantic style.

It is quite possible that his music, published by Breitkopf & Hartel, had reached the young Beethoven, or they may have met in Vienna during Dussek's brief stay there. Dussek's may even have performed
at the private gatherings organised by
Baron Raimund Wetzlar at his villa on the Grunberg. At these social gatherings Wetzlar and Prince Lichnowsky vied with each other over the musical supremacy of their proteges, Lichnowsky being and avid supporter of Beethoven and Wetzlar backing his own protege, Josef Wolffl.

It is possible that Dussek too may have appeared at these musical evenings and impressed Beethoven with his virtuoso performances and his beautiful singing tone on the piano.

Dussek was the first virtuoso pianist to sit with his right side to the audience. By doing so, the raised lid of the piano acted as a sounding board producing a resonance never heard before.
He was young, handsome and only twenty years old when he took all of Europe by storm. Young Parisian ladies were enamoured of his perfect profile and many swooned at the sight of him, as do young ladies today swoon at the sight of their favourite rock star.

Regards,
Agnes.

[Peter]

Well I've managed to listen to the two files Frankli and the Clementi impresses me the most (both movements) - I get a sense of rambling virtuosic display with the Dussek in the last movement, although there are fine moments and passage work reminiscent of Beethoven in places. From other excerpts I've heard Clementi seems the finer composer to me and certainly the one whose sonatas I would like to investigate further.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

Dear Peter,

Your suggestion that Jan Ladislav Dussek
influenced Beethoven's compositions is most interesting.

I will have to listen to Dussek's works more carefully as so far I have been impressed only with his pre-Romantic style.

It is quite possible that his music, published by Breitkopf & Hartel, had reached the young Beethoven, or they may have met in Vienna during Dussek's brief stay there. Dussek's may even have performed
at the private gatherings organised by
Baron Raimund Wetzlar at his villa on the Grunberg. At these social gatherings Wetzlar and Prince Lichnowsky vied with each other over the musical supremacy of their proteges, Lichnowsky being and avid supporter of Beethoven and Wetzlar backing his own protege, Josef Wolffl.

It is possible that Dussek too may have appeared at these musical evenings and impressed Beethoven with his virtuoso performances and his beautiful singing tone on the piano.

Dussek was the first virtuoso pianist to sit with his right side to the audience. By doing so, the raised lid of the piano acted as a sounding board producing a resonance never heard before.
He was young, handsome and only twenty years old when he took all of Europe by storm. Young Parisian ladies were enamoured of his perfect profile and many swooned at the sight of him, as do young ladies today swoon at the sight of their favourite rock star.

Regards,
Agnes.

Thanks for that Agnes - I don't think there is any recorded meeting of the two or any indication that Beethoven ever heard Dussek play. Do you have the dates of Dussek's visit to Vienna? Having listened to some of his music it seems to me that any influence on Beethoven was primarily through his earlier works. His later (more Romantic) works though were clearly a greater influence on Hummel, Field and Chopin.

Poor old Dussek took greatly to drink (like Field) and his renowned good looks evaporated as he expanded!

http://portrait.kaar.at/Musikgeschic...aus_dussek.jpg

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-24-2006).]

[Agnes Selby]

Dear Peter,

No, I am sorry, I do not have the
dates of Dussek's visit to Vienna.

I was trying to connect Beethoven and
Dussek. If the two never met, the only
influence on Beethoven would then have
been through the publication of Dussek's
works.

Yes, the beautiful Dussek did like his food and drink and his physical condition prevented him from performing. Although
he is not a significant composer, I think that his virtuosity, which so impressed his public, had an influence on the pianists who came after him. Showmanship was
part of his charm and Liszt definitely comes to mind who used a similar technique to impress his audiences.

The antics Dussek employed when performing would never have been used by Beethoven.

Regards,

Agnes.
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[Peter]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

The antics Dussek employed when performing would never have been used by Beethoven.

Regards,

Agnes.
-----------

Indeed Agnes, Beethoven had his own special way with the public!!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I've managed to listen to the two files Frankli and the Clementi impresses me the most (both movements) - I get a sense of rambling virtuosic display with the Dussek in the last movement, although there are fine moments and passage work reminiscent of Beethoven in places. From other excerpts I've heard Clementi seems the finer composer to me and certainly the one whose sonatas I would like to investigate further.

Both Clementi and Dussek have their fine moments, and to me it's beyond any question that they had their influence on Beethoven.
Breitkopf had Dussek in print and Simrock before him, and even offered Beethoven as late as 1810 a reprint of the best works by Dussek and others. But of course, the music itself is the best proof.

I do not agree at all with your judgement of "rambling virtuosic display" about the last Dussek mvt. Virtuoso stuff it is, indeed, but the piece is tightly organized from two themes into an exhilarating finale, and in structure essentially classical. Beethoven composed a few of those as well that make you breathless. Perhaps it needs repeated listening in order to appreciate it, just like is the case with so much good music.

Sometimes it's a good idea to imagine that Beethoven wrote such a sonata in his early years as a virtuoso, and then ask yourself what you think of it.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Sorrano]

It is interesting to look at who influences who. For example, in looking at a sonatina of Diabelli, Op. 151, no. 1, the second movement looks a lot like an abridgment of the Beethoven Bagatelle, op. 33, no. 2.

Clementi's pinao music has always sounded to me more like Mozart than anyone else until I saw last night the sonatinas, op. 36, nos. 3,4 finales, which reminded me more of Haydn.

I'm glad that you brought this up, Peter, I've been digging into this music of Clementi and Diabelli as a result; I have need, perhaps, of getting some of Dussek and others of that period, as well.