Beethoven - Moving Day

[HaydnFan]

Partly in response to Rod (since I have apparently not met my Beethoven posting quota on this board) I have decided to ask a Beethoven question.

I know that Beethoven moved addresses frequently in Vienna. Is there any particular reason for this? How did he get along with his neighbours? What were some of the addresses he lived at (ie. which Vienniese districts?) and were these large lodgings etc.

[Peter]

Beethoven was obviously restless by nature but there were probably many reasons for frequent address changes - falling out with landlords not withstanding. He of course only rented and during the summer period would choose to live outside the city. His longest connection with any one address in Vienna was at the Molkerbastei where he lived on and off from 1804-8 and again 1810-1814. This lodging is now palmed off as a Beethoven museum, but it is not the actual apartment he had. When I visited, the curator assured me it was the one used by Beethoven!

You can find a list of his many addresses (with photos of some - though only 4 are of the original building) at the main site:
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/addresses.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Partly in response to Rod (since I have apparently not met my Beethoven posting quota on this board) I have decided to ask a Beethoven question.

I know that Beethoven moved addresses frequently in Vienna. Is there any particular reason for this? How did he get along with his neighbours? What were some of the addresses he lived at (ie. which Vienniese districts?) and were these large lodgings etc.

Dear HaydnFan;

In the "Beethoven Compendium," there is a list of Beethoven's residences in Vienna. It runs 4 full pages, far beyond my typing endurance.


Hofrat

[Fidelio]

Beethoven moved more than 30 times in 30 years in Vienna - a combination of his own restlessness and expulsion by landlords after residents' complaints about his piano playing and ‘singing’ in the middle of the night.and of frequent Beethoven like to splash a great amount of water over himself that no doubt ended on his neighbours downstairs.

Beethoven liked to get away during the summer months and including these summer sojourns, he moved more than 70 times. He once joked "You can address your letters to 'Ludwig van Beethoven, Vienna'," he told one of his publishers.

The one apartment that he was most loyal to, and liked the most, was a top floor apartment in a four storey building owned by Baron Johann Pasqualati - art collector, music lover and patron of the arts - on the Mölkerbastei by the Bastion.

It was found for him by his young friend and secretary, the musician Ferdinand Ries.

It consisted of two rooms with fine views over the Glacis to the Vienna Woods. To afford views to the Prater gardens in the east, Beethoven - without seeking Baron Pasqualati's permission, and much to the annoyance of the building's other tenants - had a window put in the east wall. When Pasqualati offered a mild complaint, Beethoven retorted that the Baron should be grateful to him for improving the apartment!

Beethoven rented the apartment from autumn 1804 to spring 1815, with two breaks from autumn 1808 to the end of 1810, and from February to June 1814.

He asked Pasqualati to keep the apartment available for him even when he was not there, which the Baron gladly did.


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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Partly in response to Rod (since I have apparently not met my Beethoven posting quota on this board) I have decided to ask a Beethoven question.

I know that Beethoven moved addresses frequently in Vienna. Is there any particular reason for this? How did he get along with his neighbours? What were some of the addresses he lived at (ie. which Vienniese districts?) and were these large lodgings etc.

Dear HaydnFan;

In the 43 years he lived in Vienna, Beethoven moved over 70 times. That is an average of once every seven and a half months! Seyfried wrote that Beethoven's continuous moving was a mania, and no sooner than he moved into a particular lodging he was out looking for his next lodging!

Maybe this explains the mess and turmoil his residences were in. Beethoven was moving all the time.

Hofrat

[HaydnFan]

Very interesting and informative, thank you everyone! Peter, which of those photos depict original buildings?

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Peter:
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/addresses.html

[/B]

This site is so fraught with mistakes ('Tiefer garden' - by all means!), it's almost worthless.

The well-known 'Eroica-Haus' (Döblinger Hauptstraße 92) has nothing to do with Beethoven. Josef Böck-Gnadenau, who identified it, made a mistake, because didn't know that the first renumbering of the houses in Döbling took place but in 1804 and not in 1802. Thayer gave the right address already in 1872: Hofzeile 15, a house that doesn't exist anymore.

[Peter]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Very interesting and informative, thank you everyone! Peter, which of those photos depict original buildings?

Not many and I can't recall all of them but definitely From Vienna (there are also a few for which I have no photo that are original). I also notice not all the links are working properly so I'll look into that when time permits:

Molkerbastei
Theater an der Wien
Scharwzpanierhaus - this is an old photo of the original street of Beethoven's last house in Vienna where he died. His apartment was in the building next to the church. I do have a better photo of the actual building as it was and as it is now if you are interested. I also have an old photo (taken just before the property was demolished around 1903/4) of the main living room (interior) in which Beethoven died.

From the summer homes, villages around Vienna and trips to hungary:

Pest / Martonvasar
Heiligenstadt (6 Probusgasse)
Oberdobling(Vxlx Doblinger Haupstrasse 92-"Eroicahaus")
Gratz Castle

Possibly as well - Heiligenstadt
(8 Grinzingerweg - Now 64 Grinzingerstrasse)



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
This site is so fraught with mistakes ('Tiefer garden' - by all means!), it's almost worthless.

The well-known 'Eroica-Haus' (Döblinger Hauptstraße 92) has nothing to do with Beethoven. Josef Böck-Gnadenau, who identified it, made a mistake, because didn't know that the first renumbering of the houses in Döbling took place but in 1804 and not in 1802. Thayer gave the right address already in 1872: Hofzeile 15, a house that doesn't exist anymore.

Then why waste your time here? I appreciate that you may have access to new data - this site was constructed with material I had from over 20 years ago and I accept there may be a few errors (The Eroica house mistake you refer to is also in Cooper's compendium so write to him as well)
but I would appreciate it if you wish to contribute that you did it in a less patronising and offensive manner, something that seems to come naturally to you.
By the way your English is poor but don't worry I've corrected your mistakes.

"Josef Böck-Gnadenau, who identified it, made a mistake because HE didn't know that the first renumbering of the houses in Döbling took place [but] in 1804 and not in 1802."

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-25-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
From the summer homes, villages around Vienna and trips to hungary:

Pest / Martonvasar
Heiligenstadt (6 Probusgasse)
Oberdobling(Vxlx Doblinger Haupstrasse 92-"Eroicahaus")
Gratz Castle

Possibly as well - Heiligenstadt
(8 Grinzingerweg - Now 64 Grinzingerstrasse)

Dear Peter;

Having been to Martonvasar, I can tell you that it is not in Budapest. It is a hour train ride outside of Budapest.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Peter;

Having been to Martonvasar, I can tell you that it is not in Budapest. It is a hour train ride outside of Budapest.

Hofrat

It is that, I've been there. lovely place in Summer.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Peter;

Having been to Martonvasar, I can tell you that it is not in Budapest. It is a hour train ride outside of Budapest.


Hofrat

What is this? Some trying to pick the site to pieces vendetta? I do not say Martonvasar is in Pest, you will notice there is / separating the two words and I use that throughout to separate different places if you look through the list.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

What is this? Some trying to pick the site to pieces vendetta? I do not say Martonvasar is in Pest, you will notice there is / separating the two words and I use that throughout to separate different places if you look through the list.

That's classic Hoffrat, the slightest ambiguity and he'll pounce on it like a lion! I've still got a few claw marks myself.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Peter:
Then why waste your time here?

May I judge on my own when my time is wasted? Thank you very much.

I appreciate that you may have access to new data -

But this isn't 'new data'. As I wrote, the correct address has been published by Thayer 134 years ago.

this site was constructed with material I had from over 20 years ago

Sorry, I didn't know that you were responsible for this list. Rudolf Klein's excellent book 'Beethovenstätten' has been published about 40 years ago.

(The Eroica house mistake you refer to is also in Cooper's compendium so write to him as well)

Why should I? He has no opportunity to correct the misinformation in his book. The correct address has recently been republished by Walther Brauneis. Trying to get correct information is part of the responsibility of authors and compilers of address-lists.

that you did it in a less patronising and offensive manner

Shifting the issue to 'tone problems' is a classic symptom of lack of factual arguments. If somebody points out one error (there are about 70 on that page) to someone who obviously has a hard time coping with criticism, he is immediately denounced as 'patronising'. Putting up a website means running the risk of inviting critical comments.

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
May I judge on my own when my time is wasted? Thank you very much.

I just think it is odd that you bother with an 'almost worthless site'. The Beethovenhaus itself also has a link to this 'worthless' site on its website.

But this isn't 'new data'. As I wrote, the correct address has been published by Thayer 134 years ago.

Thayer also published a lot of incorrect data.

Sorry, I didn't know that you were responsible for this list. Rudolf Klein's excellent book 'Beethovenstätten' has been published about 40 years ago.

Well I'm sorry but my German is rather limited and therefore that book is not really available to me.

Why should I? He has no opportunity to correct the misinformation in his book. The correct address has recently been republished by Walther Brauneis. Trying to get correct information is part of the responsibility of authors and compilers of address-lists.

Well since the correct address has been available for as long as you say, one wonders why Dr.Cooper was not aware of that. I was thinking that in case of a reprint of the Beethoven Compendium you might like to make him aware of this?

Shifting the issue to 'tone problems' is a classic symptom of lack of factual arguments. If somebody points out one error (there are about 70 on that page) to someone who obviously has a hard time coping with criticism, he is immediately denounced as 'patronising'. Putting up a website means running the risk of inviting critical comments.

I am perfectly willing to accept criticism (especially from one as eminent in their field as yourself) provided it is presented in a constructive and friendly manner. You will notice if you check that page that I have made the alterations you suggest, but I am not aware of the 70 errors, so perhaps you can assist with that?



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'Man know thyself'