Hello

[robert newman]

Blame it on Newman - though I never said a word.

(As it happens, I did listen to Elgar's 1st Symphony last night if that's any help).

[Frankli]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Blame it on Newman - though I never said a word.

(As it happens, I did listen to Elgar's 1st Symphony last night if that's any help).

Oh-oh. It probably proves that you are me.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Oh yes!

Just like my wife always says, but I digress, here is the mystery music. A bonus prize if you or anyone gives all the right answers...
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/9762529...ack_4.wma.html

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Just like my wife always says, but I digress, here is the mystery music. A bonus prize if you or anyone gives all the right answers...
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/9762529...ack_4.wma.html

Ok; the gigue from Handel's Suite in A. A bit rushed. Now which are the questions Rod?

[robert newman]

If not Handel I would have guessed it was a work by either Scarlatti or even possibly Rameau. Bach would have made it even more amazing and it certainly has features that are both Italianate and Bach-like. But it's great. Handel picked up lots of influences.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Ok; the gigue from Handel's Suite in A. A bit rushed. Now which are the questions Rod?

Actually that was the bonus prize, not the original track I had in mind to post at this time! Oh well, I'll have to post again. You'll know the music, but you'll have to guess the piano.

The Gigue is faster than usual here, but she pulls it off (Sophie Yates, Handel Harpsichord Works Vol2. Chandos label). It is nearer the truth that the others play it too slow. This track, if thinned out a bit for piano is reminicent of B's Bagatelle style to my mind.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-21-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

If not Handel I would have guessed it was a work by either Scarlatti or even possibly Rameau. Bach would have made it even more amazing and it certainly has features that are both Italianate and Bach-like. But it's great. Handel picked up lots of influences.

Bach would have made it tedious Robert. But he has no conection with this piece whatsoever. We have no evidence Handel heard anthying from Bach.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-21-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Actually that was the bonus prize, not the original track I had in mind to post at this time! Oh well, I'll have to post again. You'll know the music, but you'll have to guess the piano.

Ok, but the sound quality should be a bit better than the Handel one.

The Gigue is faster than usual here, but she pulls it off (Sophie Yates, Handel Harpsichord Works Vol2. Chandos label). This track, if thinned out a bit for piano is reminicent of B's Bagatelle style to my mind.

That's just the volume which I don't have. What Sophie does well is using the first rhytmic motif in such a way that the gigue almost sounds like a postillon.
Halas, in vol. I she does something which I cannot forgive her for: she ruins the Chaconne (not the famous one but the one that's isn't known very well, and which wasn't published until recently, if I am well), which in fact is my favorite Handel harpsichord piece, by playing it too metrical here and there and not phrasing enough.
But you get something back: same piece, but totally different played, by C. Wood. You are not expected to like it; just for fun.
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/7349346/Wood.mp3.html

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-21-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
That's just the volume which I don't have. What Sophie does well is using the first rhytmic motif in such a way that the gigue almost sounds like a postillon.
Halas, in vol. I she does something which I cannot forgive her for: she ruins the Chaconne (not the famous one but the one that's isn't known very well, and which wasn't published until recently, if I am well), which in fact is my favorite Handel harpsichord piece, by playing it too metrical here and there and not phrasing enough.
But you get something back: same piece, but totally different played, by C. Wood. You are not expected to like it; just for fun.
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/7349346/Wood.mp3.html

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-21-2006).]

Vol 2 is the best volume I would say, but the sound is absolutely first class so if the WMA sounds bad blame Bill Gates. She labours the Chaconne in Vol 1 greatly. I'll listen to your track later.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Zauber]

My gott!!! You're as beethoven maniacs as me!!!!! Wonderful!!! I want to know (you must know more than me...)if beethoven was a mason.


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Deine Zauber binder wieder

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Zauber:
My gott!!! You're as beethoven maniacs as me!!!!! Wonderful!!! I want to know (you must know more than me...)if beethoven was a mason.

There are several masonic references in his letters and diaries, so Beethoven was well aware of Freemasonry. Many of his friends, patrons and teachers belonged to the Order of Illuminati. It is very doubtful that Beethoven belonged to a lodge, despite Karl Holz's statement that 'Beethoven was a freemason, but not active in later years'. His name does not appear on any lists from Masons or from the Order of Illuminati of the period.

The obelisk and the bee on his grave are Masonic symbols, just like the square and compass or the 'all-seeing eye'. I'm not aware of the obelisk and the bee having any significance when used together. The obelisk is commonly used as a funeral monument to masons possibly because it is less obvious than the aforementioned symbols. These particular symbols may also have been the accepted symbols of freemasonry in Germany/Vienna at the time of his death, much like the square and compass is used today in England.

As with all Masonic symbols, the actual meanings are somewhat esoteric but most pay homage to ancient operative stonemasons. I don't think the symbols on Beethoven's gravestone have any significance other than to denote he was a good hard-working (free)mason. This is where it becomes interesting......perhaps he was a mason after all!!

I am trying to contact the Grand Lodge of Germany/Austria who may have more information.

Maynard Solomon writes extensively about Beethoven and the Masons in his book 'Late Beethoven: Music, Thought, Imagination'. I don't think I can add anything to this at the moment.


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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[robert newman]

Hi Rod,

You write of that very nice Handel movement -

'Bach would have made it tedious Robert. But he has no conection with this piece whatsoever. We have no evidence Handel heard anthying from Bach'.

I was certainly thinking how Bach would have introduced at least one new amazing musical feature to that movement. But it's remarkable that Handel (like Italy and its composers as a whole) should have enjoyed such status in western music and yet been so completely ignorant of (or oblivious to) the phenomenal Johann Sebastian Bach. ? Since we've evidence Bach several times set out to meet Handel personally (each time unsuccessfully but not due to Bach) and that Bach was also a student and arranger of the latest Italian music over decades, one must surely agree it was Bach who was familiar with them, rather than vice versa. I think such a fact is surely close to JS Bach being snubbed by Italians and by Italianate composers such as Handel. That Italy and Handel must have known of Bach seems highly likely though they at no time seem to have recognised his existence. And in Vivaldi (a case where some sort of contact may have occurred) he, Vivaldi, was a 'renegade priest'.

Ah ! Rod, but the greatness of JS Bach is not dependent on pointing out such things, though they reveal his greatness and his immense talent in different ways. Had they met merely to make a short series of concerts of their own music (in mutual respect and not in any 'competition') you and I would still be sitting there, amazed, mouths wide open !



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-21-2006).]

[Zauber]

Thank you Fidelio! i've read "Beethoven" by Maynard Solomon and he talked a lot about ILUMINISME, but he didn't gave the answer at all. Mozart and Haydn were masons, and every one knows that. I don't know why the case of beethoven isn't divulgated. Maybe it's unknow. A lot of mysteries of History are eternaly unknow... ... ...

bye,
Zauber


[This message has been edited by Zauber (edited 09-21-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Hi Rod,

You write of that very nice Handel movement -

'Bach would have made it tedious Robert. But he has no conection with this piece whatsoever. We have no evidence Handel heard anthying from Bach'.

I was certainly thinking how Bach would have introduced at least one new amazing musical feature to that movement. But it's remarkable that Handel (like Italy and its composers as a whole) should have enjoyed such status in western music and yet been so completely ignorant of (or oblivious to) the phenomenal Johann Sebastian Bach. ? Since we've evidence Bach several times set out to meet Handel personally (each time unsuccessfully but not due to Bach) and that Bach was also a student and arranger of the latest Italian music over decades, one must surely agree it was Bach who was familiar with them, rather than vice versa. I think such a fact is surely close to JS Bach being snubbed by Italians and by Italianate composers such as Handel. That Italy and Handel must have known of Bach seems highly likely though they at no time seem to have recognised his existence. And in Vivaldi (a case where some sort of contact may have occurred) he, Vivaldi, was a 'renegade priest'.

Ah ! Rod, but the greatness of JS Bach is not dependent on pointing out such things, though they reveal his greatness and his immense talent in different ways. Had they met merely to make a short series of concerts of their own music (in mutual respect and not in any 'competition') you and I would still be sitting there, amazed, mouths wide open !


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-21-2006).]

Handel could have had a 'keyboard duel' with Bach like I think he (Handel) did with Scarlatti. That would have been something. If Handel had heard any of Bach's music there seems no evidence that he was influenced by it. Handel was quite keen on looking into the latest trends, getting his hands on 'useful' scores etc, so I'm sure he would have borrowed a theme or two from Bach had he heard it and thought it was of any use to him. That he apparently did not says either he was never familiar with the music, or if not he found nothing useful in it for himself.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-21-2006).]

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Zauber:
Thank you Fidelio! i've read "Beethoven" by Maynard Solomon and he talked a lot about ILUMINISME, but he didn't gave the answer at all. Mozart and Haydn were masons, and every one knows that. I don't know why the case of beethoven isn't divulgated. Maybe it's unknow. A lot of mysteries of History are eternaly unknow... ... ...

bye,
Zauber


[This message has been edited by Zauber (edited 09-21-2006).]

Let's not forget that freemaonry was abolished after 1790 and so records were not kept. Beethoven may have been one in Bonn. His teacher Neefe was a very active mason. In 1810 Beethoven wrote to Wegeler..."I was told that you are singing a song of mine in your Masonic Lodge, presumably in E Major, which I don't possess. Send it to me, I am going to replace it and you won't be sorry".

It has been reported that when Beethoven first met Schindler for the first time, they shook hands in a certain way!!


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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be