'Beethoven's New Style' (The Late Works)

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
But it is obvious that the 1st movement should be played a tempo. Badura-Skoda does so, but still he is way too slow to match Beethoven's metronome. The pianist that comes closest to it (as far as I know) is Artur Schnabel in his recording from the early 30's. He is one minute faster than Badura-Skoda. Schnabel was one of the first to take Beethoven's marks seriously, but in this movement he failed: not fast enough!

Aside from the metronome mark for this movement is what Beethoven actually wrote - Vivace ma non troppo - this indicates he was wary that some may take it too fast!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Aside from the metronome mark for this movement is what Beethoven actually wrote - Vivace ma non troppo - this indicates he was wary that some may take it too fast!

Well I think we have established that even a basic Beethoven Allegro is usually quite a lively affair, pity performers never seem to realise this. It's all relative. It would certainly sound less rushed at a quick tempo on the pianos of the time than it would on todays, all other things being equal. Let me know what you think of the two recordings posted here. Certainly compared to Emil Gilels famous recording these are very fast, yet the Badura-Skoda never once sounds rushed and there is still room here and there for even more pace. The Schnabel I will hear tonight and post my impression.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Aside from the metronome mark for this movement is what Beethoven actually wrote - Vivace ma non troppo - this indicates he was wary that some may take it too fast!

Yes and no, first it was allegro assai, but after all he decided that that would be too fast, so he changed it to allegro. That was shortly before he decided and promised never to use the Italian terms again - a promise he would not keep.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Yes and no, first it was allegro assai, but after all he decided that that would be too fast, so he changed it to allegro. That was shortly before he decided and promised never to use the Italian terms again - a promise he would not keep.

Of course there is the issue of whether you regard assai to mean 'very' or 'rather', as Beethoven seemed to have used both meanings as it suited him, or this is at least open to conjecture.

I'm presume he reverted to Italian for commercial reasons.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I think we have established that even a basic Beethoven Allegro is usually quite a lively affair, pity performers never seem to realise this. It's all relative. It would certainly sound less rushed at a quick tempo on the pianos of the time than it would on todays, all other things being equal. Let me know what you think of the two recordings posted here. Certainly compared to Emil Gilels famous recording these are very fast, yet the Badura-Skoda never once sounds rushed and there is still room here and there for even more pace. The Schnabel I will hear tonight and post my impression.

True; an old piano makes it easier, and Badura-Skoda sounds right in every respect. Schnabel, living in a time that there weren't old playable pianos around, seems to have realized the disadvantage of a modern piano. I once read that he played on prepared pianos that gave him more control over the sustain.
Badura-Skoda is my very favorite for the sonatas, basically because of his spontaneity and the variety of instruments that he uses. But I wish that Schnabel had lived 50 years later so that we could have given him a period piano, because the man shows such an intelligence in "telling" the music.
This one movement is not a good example for that, but no doubt there will be more opportunities to post other sonatas performed by him.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Of course there is the issue of whether you regard assai to mean 'very' or 'rather', as Beethoven seemed to have used both meanings as it suited him, or this is at least open to conjecture.

Did he really use "assai" in the meaning of "rather"? In that case adopting the metronome was a wise decision.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
True; an old piano makes it easier, and Badura-Skoda sounds right in every respect. Schnabel, living in a time that there weren't old playable pianos around, seems to have realized the disadvantage of a modern piano. I once read that he played on prepared pianos that gave him more control over the sustain.
Badura-Skoda is my very favorite for the sonatas, basically because of his spontaneity and the variety of instruments that he uses. But I wish that Schnabel had lived 50 years later so that we could have given him a period piano, because the man shows such an intelligence in "telling" the music.
This one movement is not a good example for that, but no doubt there will be more opportunities to post other sonatas performed by him.

I didn't know abou Schnabel's 'prepared' pianos, but I do know he had a big fall-out with Steinway in the US as they wouldn't grant him the use of one of their intruments for performance there unless he used their brand in Europe to! That's capitalism for you. I read this in a intresting book, a transcript of an interview he gave. He also admitted he know nothing of the mechanics of the piano.

Badura Skoda is very good with the late sonatas, but some of the earlier ones he is not so hot (eg op31 nrs1&3). In some ways this music is more of a test for the interpreter than the late music.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Did he really use "assai" in the meaning of "rather"? In that case adopting the metronome was a wise decision.

Well it is something to think about, though for the most part I would say he means the quicker tempo. I have a section in my Beethoven book by William Newman (no relation I hope!) that looks into the matter, I may get round to scanning it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I didn't know abou Schnabel's 'prepared' pianos, but I do know he had a big fall-out with Steinway in the US as they wouldn't grant him the use of one of their intruments for performance there unless he used their brand in Europe to! That's capitalism for you. I read this in a intresting book, a transcript of an interview he gave. He also admitted he know nothing of the mechanics of the piano.

Badura Skoda is very good with the late sonatas, but some of the earlier ones he is not so hot (eg op31 nrs1&3). In some ways this music is more of a test for the interpreter than the late music.

Schnabel actually preferred Bechstein and his recordings of the Beethoven sonatas are done on a Bechstein. At that time (1930's) Steinway didn't quite dominate the concert platform as they do today - the war saw to that! Incidentally there is a difference between the Hamburg and New York Steinways which tend to have a much brighter brasher quality.

I'll listen to the Bardura audiofile over the weekend, I already have the complete Schnabel sonatas, which are a mixed bunch - his tempi were considered at the time extremely fast and if you look at his own editions he introduces frequent fluctuations of tempi as well as some odd fingering! The recording sound quality of course is poor.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-15-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:

Badura Skoda is very good with the late sonatas, but some of the earlier ones he is not so hot (eg op31 nrs1&3). In some ways this music is more of a test for the interpreter than the late music.

I only have BS's op. 31/1 + 2, but they are both fine to me. Anyway, there isn't much competition when it comes to op. 31 played on historical instruments or copies of them.
Btw op. 31/1 always makes me laugh. And talking about trills: would the prolonged trill in the slow movement be the first instance that Beethoven used it that way?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I only have BS's op. 31/1 + 2, but they are both fine to me. Anyway, there isn't much competition when it comes to op. 31 played on historical instruments or copies of them.
Btw op. 31/1 always makes me laugh. And talking about trills: would the prolonged trill in the slow movement be the first instance that Beethoven used it that way?

Believe me there is competition on period instruments. I think Badura-Skoda's efforts with nr1 first movement and most of nr3 are disastrous, I have much better than this in my authentic collection, in fact I posted extracts from both here. Maybe you are right about the trill though.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-15-2006).]

[Rod]

I'm listening to the Schnabel recording as I type. I must say I'm very impressed with his conception of the piece so far, even if there are quite a few lapses here and there technically. If he'd played using the Graf, that would be really have been something...

Who can say this is too fast? Thanks Frankli, I really am enjoying this one.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-15-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:

Believe me there is competition on period instruments. I think Badura-Skoda's efforts with nr1 first movement and most of nr3 are disastrous, I have much better than this in my authentic collection, in fact I posted extracts from both here.

Well, happily, there is something like tastes that can differ. In my collection, section authentic, subsection op. 31, are Tan (he's a bore) and Ursula Dütschler (not bad, but she misses some of the weird but essential syncopations in the main theme). But I am kind of addicted to Badura's playing, it's as if he discovers the music while playing it, and falls from one marvel into the other.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm listening to the Schnabel recording as I type. I must say I'm very impressed with his conception of the piece so far, even if there are quite a few lapses here and there technically. If he'd played using the Graf, that would be really have been something...

Who can say this is too fast? Thanks Frankli, I really am enjoying this one.

You're welcome Rod. If you like this, you'll for sure like the rest of Schnabel's playing!
I do agree with Peter about his fooling around with tempi here and there (quite typical for the style of the 30's). But he is so marvellous with phrasing that I want forgive him.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
You're welcome Rod. If you like this, you'll for sure like the rest of Schnabel's playing!
I do agree with Peter about his fooling around with tempi here and there (quite typical for the style of the 30's). But he is so marvellous with phrasing that I want forgive him.

I think this 'fooling around' with the tempi is close to what Beethoven wanted - flexibiltiy not rigidity. I've always maintained that for Beethoven, Schnabel was the best, certainly of that generation - his Chopin is terrible!



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'Man know thyself'