'Beethoven's New Style' (The Late Works)

[robert newman]

I want to relax a day or so from Bonn/Modena posts and thought I'd post on views contained within an article written by the pianist Alfred Brendel entitled 'Beethoven's New Style'.

He writes -

''in his (Beethoven's) late works baroque influences are more evident than before. This polyphony 'turns the bass into melody' according to Walter Riezler and provides in some of his late sonatas, his B flat quartet, the Diabelli Variations, the Missa Solemnis, the finale of the 9th, climaxes with the aid of fugal form. Other baroque features are the recitative (sometimes richly ornamented), the aria and the chaconne. One of Beethoven's uncompromising traits is his use of clashing seconds. This had already been apparent in the 'Lebewohl' Sonata Op.81a where the telescoping of the horn calls depicts the disappearance of the coach and aroused misgivings among critics well in to the 19th century. Nor is Beethoven afraid of writing false relations. Another feature is the wide separation of registers, of treble and bass.

Sonata Op.101

Op.101 marks a fundamental change in Beethoven's piano sonatas. Now the dynamic, developmental aspect takes over the entire work. The rondo form is now abandoned. Although the finale is a sonata form its imitative polyphony is agglomerated, in the development section, into a fugue.

Sonata Op.106

Here, in this work I must confess that to me Beethoven's metronome marks do not, even in conception seem wholly appropriate to the character of the movements, with the possible exception of the Largo introduction to the fugue. The indication of 138 for the first movement is, by any player, and on any piano, simply not workable - not for nothing did Beethoven himself change his own mind about the original 'Allegro assai', deleting the 'assai'.

The first London printing of this sonata which appeared almost simulataneously with that of Artaria in Vienna offers by comparison several interesting corrections and alternatives. Beethoven himself allowed the option of interchanging the inner movements at will or even omitting the Largo before the fugue, suggestions that seem to defy sanity.

Sonatas Opp.109, 110 and 111

All three of the last sonatas have in common a new way of ending. Op.109 withdraws into an inner world, Op.110 ends in euphoric self-immobilation, while Op.111 surrenders itself to silence.

The third movement of Op.110 is Passion music - a complex of baroque forms in which ariosi and fugues are interwoven. The first part of the fugue attempts to counteract the 'lamenting song' which, it has been noted, bears resemblance to the aria 'It is finished' from Bach's St John Passion.

Beethoven's C Minor Sonata Op.111 leaves a dual impression. Its two movements confront one another as thesis and antithesis. Attempts at interpretation such as 'Samsara and Nirvana' (Bulow), the 'worldly and otherworldly' (Fischer), 'Resistance and Submission' (Lenz) or the masculine and feminine principles which Beethoven himself was so fond of expounding.

The forms with the most compelling animation in this sonata are sonata and fugue - the Allegro of Op.111 is a sonata form suffused with fugal elements.

(from Alfred Brendel's 'Music Sounded Out'
-1990).

[Nightklavier]

Robert - With your recent Gould thread, some comments on this forum, and even other anecdotes I've read from pianists and such, I wanted to express something about the Op. 109...

It seems there's this highly enthusiastic regard for the Op. 109, like it's some Lost Atlantis of the piano literature. But quite frankly, I think the Op. 109 is the least approachable of all the sonatas. To me, the Op. 110 and 111 are the summits of Beethoven's piano works. Indeed, I think the Op. 109 is grinded into the dirt by the Op. 110. Don't get me wrong, the Op. 109 is one of those enigmatic works of a genius, but come on... the last movement of the Op. 110 is one of the greatest moments in Beethoven. That melancholy theme interjected by such ghostly fugal material is some of the best piano music I've heard. I like to think this is what Beethoven's improvisations would have been like... And I've said this before, but the last 30 seconds of this same movement are powerful enough that I feel like I'm having an out-of-body experience.

The Op. 111 is another brushstroke of perfection. Here Beethoven provides such superior quality AND quantity (with a last movement that reaches 16 or so minutes) that never runs out of ideas. Those mysterious trills are like wind-chimes in an empty world. If the themes of such high caliber weren't enough, the sheer structure of the thing is enough to amaze.

Both the Op. 110 and 111 to me, are more profound, more emotionally vast and more reflective than the Op. 109. I'm not aversed to the Op. 109; I've heard it many times and even tried to play it. I just think the enthusiasm is misplaced, that's all. The Op. 110 and 111 deserve more respect, as I feel they are on the top 10 list of Beethoven's greatest works (... yeah, I mean it).

[robert newman]

Thanks Nightklavier - I really respect this. I am a newcomer to Beethoven in the sense that I've never really focused attention on him until the last year or so. These late works of Beethoven are awesome, yes.

Total respect for the great man and his amazing music. I love it passionately.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
Robert - With your recent Gould thread, some comments on this forum, and even other anecdotes I've read from pianists and such, I wanted to express something about the Op. 109...

It seems there's this highly enthusiastic regard for the Op. 109, like it's some Lost Atlantis of the piano literature. But quite frankly, I think the Op. 109 is the least approachable of all the sonatas. To me, the Op. 110 and 111 are the summits of Beethoven's piano works. Indeed, I think the Op. 109 is grinded into the dirt by the Op. 110. Don't get me wrong, the Op. 109 is one of those enigmatic works of a genius, but come on... the last movement of the Op. 110 is one of the greatest moments in Beethoven. That melancholy theme interjected by such ghostly fugal material is some of the best piano music I've heard. I like to think this is what Beethoven's improvisations would have been like... And I've said this before, but the last 30 seconds of this same movement are powerful enough that I feel like I'm having an out-of-body experience.

The Op. 111 is another brushstroke of perfection. Here Beethoven provides such superior quality AND quantity (with a last movement that reaches 16 or so minutes) that never runs out of ideas. Those mysterious trills are like wind-chimes in an empty world. If the themes of such high caliber weren't enough, the sheer structure of the thing is enough to amaze.

Both the Op. 110 and 111 to me, are more profound, more emotionally vast and more reflective than the Op. 109. I'm not aversed to the Op. 109; I've heard it many times and even tried to play it. I just think the enthusiasm is misplaced, that's all. The Op. 110 and 111 deserve more respect, as I feel they are on the top 10 list of Beethoven's greatest works (... yeah, I mean it).

Don't agree with your assessment of op.109 -I think the level of inspiration is just as high in all 3 sonatas. The last movement of op.109 is a magnificent set of variations on one of the most perfect themes Beethoven ever conceived. I think the last 3 sonatas form a perfect trinity and it is wrong to single out Op.109 as somehow inferior.

Having said that - I understand how Op.110 has had such an effect on you!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I want to relax a day or so from Bonn/Modena posts and thought I'd post on views contained within an article written by the pianist Alfred Brendel entitled 'Beethoven's New Style'.

He writes -

''in his (Beethoven's) late works baroque influences are more evident than before. This polyphony 'turns the bass into melody' according to Walter Riezler and provides in some of his late sonatas, his B flat quartet, the Diabelli Variations, the Missa Solemnis, the finale of the 9th, climaxes with the aid of fugal form. Other baroque features are the recitative (sometimes richly ornamented), the aria and the chaconne. One of Beethoven's uncompromising traits is his use of clashing seconds. This had already been apparent in the 'Lebewohl' Sonata Op.81a where the telescoping of the horn calls depicts the disappearance of the coach and aroused misgivings among critics well in to the 19th century. Nor is Beethoven afraid of writing false relations. Another feature is the wide separation of registers, of treble and bass.

Yes the Baroque influence is quite striking in these later works. Beethoven was looking further back into history than that as well, Palestrina, Josquin and the ancient modes. He actually complained in 1817 that he had not studied composition enough! He had an enormous appetite for study and even requested from Breitkopf and Hartel "all the scores you have, for real enjoyment and purposes of study".

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'Man know thyself'

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:

It seems there's this highly enthusiastic regard for the Op. 109, like it's some Lost Atlantis of the piano literature. But quite frankly, I think the Op. 109 is the least approachable of all the sonatas. To me, the Op. 110 and 111 are the summits of Beethoven's piano works. Indeed, I think the Op. 109 is grinded into the dirt by the Op. 110.

Perhaps it is less approachable, but it isn't really enigmatic. There is just a lot of intellectual thinking behind it; Beethoven's rethinking and penetrating of the sonata form, just like what he would do in his late quartets, some years later.
In total contrast to op. 111 the first movement almost is as compressed as a black hole. So much happens in such a short time, that it takes all your concentration, and many times of listening, just to start to understand what it is all about.
My first acquaintance with this movement was a bit like what somebody on this board wrote about Berg's music: fascination rather than understanding.
Fascination remained since then understanding has started to grow.

The last movement, with the variations, startles me most. The theme is as beautiful as the one in op. 111, but how he reaches the last variation, the one that almost sounds like a parody: a climax of controlled chaos, doesn't leave me unmoved. And then, how the contrasting theme returns, but now cantabile and with some added bass. It leaves me baffled.

In my view the last three sonatas can be compared to the quartets op. 130 (133)/131, in that he tries to reinvent musical form (that is: sonata form)as it was known, and offers different solutions, all of them with the fusing of Baroque elements, like fugue, variation, counterpoint, and a new function of trill. It is experimental music, we are part of the experiments, but the experiments succeed.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Sonata Op.106

Here, in this work I must confess that to me Beethoven's metronome marks do not, even in conception seem wholly appropriate to the character of the movements, with the possible exception of the Largo introduction to the fugue. The indication of 138 for the first movement is, by any player, and on any piano, simply not workable - not for nothing did Beethoven himself change his own mind about the original 'Allegro assai', deleting the 'assai'.

Well here we have yet another Beethoven movement that is played way too slow, yet we have comments like this that claim B's metronome mark is too fast. If one also considers that B by his own words regards the metronome figure as an indication for only the first few measures (and as I have mentioned too many times before everything else is to be played in proportion), well everything fits into place. In my recording by Badura-Skoda he really attacks the opening bars, as quick as is probably possible. The remainder does not sound rushed, yet it is still a good couple of minutes shorter than any other recording I have heard. In fact in places I could have recommended he speeded it up even more...

Brendel is not to be quoted as an authority in this respect.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-14-2006).]

[robert newman]

OK Rod.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well here we have yet another Beethoven movement that is played way too slow, yet we have comments like this that claim B's metronome mark is too fast. If one also considers that B by his own words regards the metronome figure as an indication for only the first few measures (and as I have mentioned too many times before everything else is to be played in proportion), well everything fits into place. In my recording by Badura-Skoda he really attacks the opening bars, as quick as is probably possible. The remainder does not sound rushed, yet it is still a good couple of minutes shorter than any other recording I have heard. In fact in places I could have recommended he speeded it up even more...

But it is obvious that the 1st movement should be played a tempo. Badura-Skoda does so, but still he is way too slow to match Beethoven's metronome. The pianist that comes closest to it (as far as I know) is Artur Schnabel in his recording from the early 30's. He is one minute faster than Badura-Skoda. Schnabel was one of the first to take Beethoven's marks seriously, but in this movement he failed: not fast enough! The result is far from convincing. At some places it's just too rushed - too much Glenn Gould, I would almost say.
I do believe that we should take Beethoven seriously when he adds metronome marks to his score. But I wonder if something went wrong with the Hammerklavier's 1st movement.



[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-14-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
But I wonder if something went wrong with the Hammerklavier's 1st movement.

I don't think you can have it both ways! However I think the mistake is in applying a literal interpretation of the metronome marks - I think it should be as a guide. I think Beethoven once said that anyone with enough musical sense should be able to find the right tempo for themselves.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
But it is obvious that the 1st movement should be played a tempo. Badura-Skoda does so, but still he is way too slow to match Beethoven's metronome. The pianist that comes closest to it (as far as I know) is Artur Schnabel in his recording from the early 30's. He is one minute faster than Badura-Skoda. Schnabel was one of the first to take Beethoven's marks seriously, but in this movement he failed: not fast enough! The result is far from convincing. At some places it's just too rushed - too much Glenn Gould, I would almost say.
I do believe that we should take Beethoven seriously when he adds metronome marks to his score. But I wonder if something went wrong with the Hammerklavier's 1st movement.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-14-2006).]

Well you have forgotten Beethoven made it clear when discussing some of his other metronome marks that they applied only to the first few measures, which implies some flexibility. The opening 'fanfare' theme should be despatched very swiftly to my mind. I did say that Badura-Skoda could have played the movement faster to my taste so there you go - all things considered the tempo is feasible to someone like me! On the Graf piano certainly it is more feasible.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

Peter and Rod: I surrender on this. Having carefully listened to the Schnabel performance again (who almost manages to stick to the prescribed 138), I must say that not the tempo itself is the problem here, but Schnabel's technical capabilities - he just doesn't manage to control the piece when played so fast. And this does harm to his usual great sensitivity with Beethoven. Having said that, I still haven't heard a pianist yet who performed the piece properly with the pace that Beethoven asks for. What could be the reason for that?

It's true that the metronome mark applies to the first measures, but at the same time it is the pulse of the movement, the basic tempo. Both Schnabel and Badura-Skoda stick to that - Badura-Skoda having a slightly lower pulse, which to me is fully acceptable in his recording.

About Beethoven's remark that a musician should find the right tempo: Beethoven called the tempo ordinario something from "the barbarious paste" (or words like that), since modern composers needed more flexibility. That's one reason why he advocated the use of the new metronome everywhere in his correspondence - the other reason being the general custom of slowing down tempi from about 1810 on.

Anyway, just for fun: here is a zip with both Badura-Skoda's and Schnabel's recording - nice to compare: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/6122136...106_1.zip.html

[Frankli]

I found the exact self-confident words, in a letter to Schott, 1826:

"In unserm Jahrhundert ist dergleichen sicher nöthig; auch habe ich Briefe von Berlin, daß die erste Aufführung der Symphonie mit enthusiastischem Beyfalle vor sich gegangen ist, welches ich großentheils der Metronomisirung zuschreibe. Wir können beynahe keine Tempi ordinarij mehr haben, indem man sich nach den Ideen des freyeren Genius richten muß."

Which means, in my own clumsy translation: In our century such a device (the metronome) is absolutely necessary; I also received a letter from Berlin, that the first performance of the symphony [the 9th, I suppose] has met with a lot of enthusiasm, which I attribute for the biggest part to the use of metronome marks. We can hardly have tempi ordinari anymore, because we must aim at the ideas of the free genius.

[Rod]

More than 250 years later all we hear are tempi that are still way too generalised and moderate. I suggest the only reason why he advocated the metronome was because of performances like this then.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-15-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:

Anyway, just for fun: here is a zip with both Badura-Skoda's and Schnabel's recording - nice to compare: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/6122136...106_1.zip.html

Of course I have the B-S recording (using a Graf). I'll listen to Schnabel's tonight, thanks.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin