'Beethoven's New Style' (The Late Works)

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Ok; nr 1 you know by now. Number 2 is from the Andante of the D 959 sonata, a movement which I guess was heavily inspired by the last movement of Beethoven's op. 109. Incredible music.
You hear it played on an 1825 Fritz. All I know about Fritz is that he was one of the piano builders of the new generation, to which Graf belonged as well. The piano is really ravishing, and belongs to the top of the Viennese piano building.
On a modern piano it can't possibly sound as clear. One of the reasons is the radically different aesthetics. Where in the early 19th c. (and before) they purposely built pianos with different characteristics/characters for the low, middle, and high registers. modern piano builders try to avoid differences in character and make it all sound smooth.
There is no composer like Schubert who pushed the ability of the Viennese pianos to imitate the orchestra to the limit so hard, and it can be heard everywhere in his late piano works.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-18-2006).]

When you mentioned it was Schubert I thought a reassessment of my assessment of the piano will probably be in order! The Fritz is a relatively late Viennese fortepiano with the Viennese action, but not all that late, contemporary with B's Graf. What threw me was the power in the bass which seems heavier than what I would expect from a Graf, closer to the Broadwood. The treble and mid-range sounds typical Viennese style with the bell-like tone. And considering the English action was accepted relatively late on the Viennese scene I though the piano must have been circa 1850 or later. It's certainly a very refined instrument indeed.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Well, melodramatic.... yes, perhaps somewhat. But compare it to the last variation of op. 109, which it has many similarities with. "Melodramatic" just doesn't really cover it. It's an amazing, anarchistic, modernistic, uncommon page in Schubert's oeuvre. And the form: a recitative, a cadenza?

But I am not convinced by Schubert in this mode, it sounds to me he is ahead of himself, trying to walk before he can crawl. Like he has the ideas but has not developed the best manner for their execution. The drama, however modern or revolutionary, has to sound spontanious and natural to be convincing. With the Romantic era it became wholely contrived.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
When you mentioned it was Schubert I thought a reassessment of my assessment of the piano will probably be in order! The Fritz is a relatively late Viennese fortepiano with the Viennese action, but not all that late, contemporary with B's Graf. What threw me was the power in the bass which seems heavier than what I would expect from a Graf, closer to the Broadwood. The treble and mid-range sounds typical Viennese style with the bell-like tone. And considering the English action was accepted relatively late on the Viennese scene I though the piano must have been circa 1850 or later. It's certainly a very refined instrument indeed.

Yes, and it can be called an example of the culmination, the perfection and the end of Viennese style. There is (happiliy) nothing English in the piano: despite its power it has a clear articulation.
Concerning the strong bass: my piano handbook says that Fritz used thicker strings for the lower register than was usual. For Schubert it means that the notorious low thrill in the theme of D 960 sounds clear and ominous, rather than muddy.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Yes, and it can be called an example of the culmination, the perfection and the end of Viennese style. There is (happiliy) nothing English in the piano: despite its power it has a clear articulation.
Concerning the strong bass: my piano handbook says that Fritz used thicker strings for the lower register than was usual. For Schubert it means that the notorious low thrill in the theme of D 960 sounds clear and ominous, rather than muddy.

That explains it, thanks. I agree the English school piano is an inferior instrument, then and now. Very interesting to hear another late model Viennese fp. I'd really like to hear an original Streicher from this period.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-18-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
But I am not convinced by Schubert in this mode, it sounds to me he is ahead of himself, trying to walk before he can crawl. Like he has the ideas but has not developed the best manner for their execution. The drama, however modern or revolutionary, has to sound spontanious and natural to be convincing. With the Romantic era it became wholely contrived.

Hmm, I couldn't agree less. Perhaps this passage comes out of the blue in the andante, but that's what makes it so scary. The fragment iself is a very clever piece of craftmanship.
So I'd rather say: Schubert was ahead of everybody else when he wrote it.
But of course, it's all a matter of taste.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-18-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Hmm, I couldn't agree less. Perhaps this passage comes out of the blue in the andante, but that's what makes it so scary. The fragment iself is a very clever piece of craftmanship.
So I'd rather say: Schubert was ahead of everybody else when he wrote it.
But of course, it's all a matter of taste.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-18-2006).]

Yes I'm no Schubert fan. I have a recording of B's 5th fp concerto with I think a Fritz from circa 1810, another beautiful sounding instrument with the similar focused bell-like tone.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
That explains it, thanks. I agree the English school piano is an inferior instrument, then and now. Very interesting to hear another late model Viennese fp. I'd really like to hear an original Streicher from this period.

Going through my collection (not my piano collection but my cd collection, unfortunately), it's mostly Graf, Fritz, Broadwood, and the famous Lagrassa. There is also a Seidner 1815, a Hoxa 1826, a Hasska 1815, a Schweighofer 1846, all Viennese instruments. I wonder if any Streicher from the 1820's has survived.

Btw Komen also plays a Fritz 1825 on his op. 53/54/57 cd. Probably the same instrument.



[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-18-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Going through my collection (not my piano collection but my cd collection, unfortunately), it's mostly Graf, Fritz, Broadwood, and the famous Lagrassa. There is also a Seidner 1815, a Hoxa 1826, a Hasska 1815, a Schweighofer 1846, all Viennese instruments. I wonder if any Streicher from the 1820's has survived.

I have only heard Tan play with a Streicher copy from c1815. Another famous brand is Schantz. I have a few CDs with this name, inc 2 by Badura-Skoda. The most famous 5 octave instrument is the Walter, I have many CDs using this make or copies.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Hmm, I couldn't agree less. Perhaps this passage comes out of the blue in the andante, but that's what makes it so scary. The fragment iself is a very clever piece of craftmanship.
So I'd rather say: Schubert was ahead of everybody else when he wrote it.
But of course, it's all a matter of taste.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-18-2006).]

I agree and there is an equally remarkable passage in the next A major sonata slow movement - it really is extraordinarily original but I haven't heard it on the FP.

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'Man know thyself'