'Beethoven's New Style' (The Late Works)

[AlexOv]

Thanks for all the posts! Very enjoyable to read. I have been a big fan of the late sonatas for many years now and it is very nice to read all your views. I am inspired to listen again to the sonatas: not, for me, to compare one version to another, but just to hear any of them. Appreciate our good fortune! Many years ago, we humans never had the luxury of picking and choosing which was best or who was best: before the recording industry began, for most people, if you knew ANYone who could play ANY of the sonatas or mere parts of any of them, you were fortunate, even if you could afford to be sick of the Moonlight! As for the later sonatas, you were not likely to have the luxury of hearing them again and again until you "understood" them better. How lucky we are!
I had a listen to the Badura-Skoda and the Schnabel. I have to say that the Schnabel reminds me of the hissy 78 rpm records that my father, and everyone else, had to play if they wanted to hear these sonatas, prior to the development of 33 rpm records. And, leaving aside the rarity of live performances, you never heard the longer movements without stopping to change the record midway. So for me, if you can hear ANY version of these great works, count yourself lucky to be living in this age. It only took my computer about 15 seconds to download the two versions of that first movement: I only know personally a handful people who would ever have heard, let alone loved, them, and I am over fifty. Of course, I don't mix in musical circles!

[Peter]

Originally posted by AlexOv:
Thanks for all the posts! Very enjoyable to read. I have been a big fan of the late sonatas for many years now and it is very nice to read all your views. I am inspired to listen again to the sonatas: not, for me, to compare one version to another, but just to hear any of them. Appreciate our good fortune! Many years ago, we humans never had the luxury of picking and choosing which was best or who was best: before the recording industry began, for most people, if you knew ANYone who could play ANY of the sonatas or mere parts of any of them, you were fortunate, even if you could afford to be sick of the Moonlight! As for the later sonatas, you were not likely to have the luxury of hearing them again and again until you "understood" them better. How lucky we are!
I had a listen to the Badura-Skoda and the Schnabel. I have to say that the Schnabel reminds me of the hissy 78 rpm records that my father, and everyone else, had to play if they wanted to hear these sonatas, prior to the development of 33 rpm records. And, leaving aside the rarity of live performances, you never heard the longer movements without stopping to change the record midway. So for me, if you can hear ANY version of these great works, count yourself lucky to be living in this age. It only took my computer about 15 seconds to download the two versions of that first movement: I only know personally a handful people who would ever have heard, let alone loved, them, and I am over fifty. Of course, I don't mix in musical circles!

Thanks for that - yes it is a pity that the Schnabel recordings are with such old technology - my teacher had the good fortune to hear him live and never let her pupils forget it! Whenever Brendel or some other modern day hero were mentioned, we knew what was coming "Yes, but they never heard Schnabel!"

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Schnabel actually preferred Bechstein and his recordings of the Beethoven sonatas are done on a Bechstein. At that time (1930's) Steinway didn't quite dominate the concert platform as they do today - the war saw to that! Incidentally there is a difference between the Hamburg and New York Steinways which tend to have a much brighter brasher quality.

I'll listen to the Bardura audiofile over the weekend, I already have the complete Schnabel sonatas, which are a mixed bunch - his tempi were considered at the time extremely fast and if you look at his own editions he introduces frequent fluctuations of tempi as well as some odd fingering! The recording sound quality of course is poor.

I know about his preference for the Bechstein, he made this point in the interview, and this may have has some bearing on Steinways heavy handed treatment of him in the US. He didn't differentiate between the US and German Steinways however.

There is a lot of hiss in the Schnabel mp3, but this is probable the closest thing to my vision of the movment I've heard. I've heard a few other bits and pieces of his Beethoven, and I agree he is a little hit and miss. But with the mp3 he is close to the read deal to my mind. This manner if performed on the Graf would make everything else obsolete overnight.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-16-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Well, happily, there is something like tastes that can differ. In my collection, section authentic, subsection op. 31, are Tan (he's a bore) and Ursula Dütschler (not bad, but she misses some of the weird but essential syncopations in the main theme). But I am kind of addicted to Badura's playing, it's as if he discovers the music while playing it, and falls from one marvel into the other.

I have those recordings too, I agree with your remark about Tan especially. He sounds like he is totally bored with this music, even the Tempest. Yet his disk with the Waldstein and Appassionata is fantastic. Tan is a mystery to me.

Back to op31 I was thinking of my Cd by Paul Komen. This is the best I have heard of 1 and 3, though strangely his no2 is not so hot compared to the competition.

I have B's 4th concerto by Badura-Skoda using his Graf that is simply superb.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-16-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:

There is a lot of hiss in the Schnabel mp3, but this is probable the closest thing to my vision of the movment I've heard. I've heard a few other bits and pieces of his Beethoven, and I agree he is a little hit and miss. But with the mp3 he is close to the read deal to my mind. This manner if performed on the Graf would make everything else obsolete overnight.

The problem with the Schnabel recordings is that the originals (HMV shellac) were very bad.
There is an old transfer, from the 80s I think, on Pearl, that filtered out all the hiss, but this results in limited piano sound.
The mp3 file comes from the recent Naxos recording, and it is a compromise between filtering the hiss completely and leaving everything intact. Besides, the engineers used modern computer technology in order to decrackle the original.
I both have the Pearl and the Naxos results, but I prefer the last. After a while you get used to the hiss - up to a point - and Schnabel's magical playing does the rest.
But needless to repeat: the man should have had a period instrument; it seems that he understood how to handle it.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:

Back to op31 I was thinking of my Cd by Paul Komen. This is the best I have heard of 1 and 3, though strangely his no2 is not so hot compared to the competition.

I have B's 4th concerto by Badura-Skoda using his Graf that is simply superb.

Did Komen record op. 31? I must have missed that one.
Komen is also a very sensitive player, like Schnabel, and he plays beautiful instruments. But sometimes his approach is a bit too intellectual to my taste, as can be heard here and there in his recording of the Diabelli variations. I am very fond of the way he deals with op. 78 and 79.
I remember hearing the lp with the concerto for the first time, many years ago. That was quite a new experience. It was the first (semi) HIP recording of a piano concerto, I guess.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by AlexOv:
Many years ago, we humans never had the luxury of picking and choosing which was best or who was best: before the recording industry began, for most people, if you knew ANYone who could play ANY of the sonatas or mere parts of any of them, you were fortunate, even if you could afford to be sick of the Moonlight! As for the later sonatas, you were not likely to have the luxury of hearing them again and again until you "understood" them better. How lucky we are!

Very true! I learned to love the music through recordings that I can now hardly bare anymore. The advantage of having so much choice is that it somehow makes it possible to hear and understand and appreciate the music from different perspectives. And besides, it is great fun to compare how different performers try to solve the puzzle that every Beethoven score is.
But yes, I feel a little bit spoilt, with 5 to 10 different recordings of the Hammerklavier in my cupboard.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Did Komen record op. 31? I must have missed that one.
Komen is also a very sensitive player, like Schnabel, and he plays beautiful instruments. But sometimes his approach is a bit too intellectual to my taste, as can be heard here and there in his recording of the Diabelli variations. I am very fond of the way he deals with op. 78 and 79.
I remember hearing the lp with the concerto for the first time, many years ago. That was quite a new experience. It was the first (semi) HIP recording of a piano concerto, I guess.

I have Komen's Diabelli recording and heavily critised it here, after the theme everything goes downhill! There is another authentic Diabelli on Naxos by Edmund Battersby that is a very tired grey experience. Let's hope Brautigam will do better when he records it in the future as part of his complete B piano works series. But I agree about Komen's Op78 especially. I never even consider buying piano music on modern instruments these days unless it is an extreme rarety and there is no alternative.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

I have Komen's Diabelli recording and heavily critised it here, after the theme everything goes downhill! There is another authentic Diabelli on Naxos by Edmund Battersby that is a very tired grey experience.

Yes, that sounded like it were 333 variations instead of 33. And the extra cd with the modern piano performance didn't make it any better.
There is a third one, played by Chie Hirai on a Graf 1825. It's a live performance, and though she is clearly nervous at the start, and her playing is a bit unbalanced, it is definitely more exciting than the other two.

Let's hope Brautigam will do better when he records it in the future as part of his complete B piano works series. But I agree about Komen's Op78 especially. I never even consider buying piano music on modern instruments these days unless it is an extreme rarety and there is no alternative.

I still like to listen to pianists like Horowitz, Pollini, Arrau, and a few others, now and then. It cannot be denied that they have something to say about the music. At the same time, having the "HIP" recordings in memory, it is instructive to be able to hear when the problems arise due to the use of the modern instrument.
Concerning Brautigam: he is not bad, but not my favorite. Do you know his first recording of the early variations? That's great fun.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
[b] I still like to listen to pianists like Horowitz, Pollini, Arrau, and a few others, now and then. It cannot be denied that they have something to say about the music. At the same time, having the "HIP" recordings in memory, it is instructive to be able to hear when the problems arise due to the use of the modern instrument.
Concerning Brautigam: he is not bad, but not my favorite. Do you know his first recording of the early variations? That's great fun.

Yes I have the early variations and some early sonatas (on a Walter copy) by Brautigam. I agree his performances of the variations are on the whole very good and entertaining. Strangely he looses his grasp here and there with the Op2 sonatas, though for the most part he is good with these also.

I've possessed all of B's major and most of the minor piano music on modern piano, but I've given away all except those that have no reasonable fortepiano equivalent. It's very difficult to go back after you've heard these old Viennese/German brands from Beethoven's time. I'm not so keen on the English fortepianos however, they sound a bit unrefined and 'clanky'.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-16-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:

I've possessed all of B's major and most of the minor piano music on modern piano, but I've given away all except those that have no reasonable fortepiano equivalent. It's very difficult to go back after you've heard these old Viennese/German brands from Beethoven's time. I'm not so keen on the English fortepianos however, they sound a bit unrefined and 'clanky'.

It depends, I think. An 1815 Broadwood can be great for Clementi and Dussek. But Beethoven and Broadwood were not a good combination, despite the fact that he obvously was very proud of receiving an instrument as a present.

There is an article in Early Music (couple years ago) by T. Skowroneck, about the Erard which Beethoven received as a gift in 1803. That piano was basically an English style instrument, and although it was much lighter than the Broadwood that Beethoven would receive 14 years later, it turned out that he was not very happy with it. He composed some works for/on it, like the Waldstein, but later on he complained that the instrument wasn't as supple and elastic as a Viennese action piano.
He had the action changed, but never was satisfied with it. After some years he returned to a Viennese piano. Not after that he had broken "about 78 percent" of the strings on the Erard.
Nevertheless, the characteristics of the Erard would influence Viennese piano building and Beethoven's style, and this is reflected in some of the works composed in these years. Skowroneck gives some nice examples, which also show the disadvantage of the English action: it was slooooow and the tone was muddy.

But now, Rod: would you be able to say something about the instrument played here - and perhaps, to identify the music?
It's far from easy, but I just wonder.
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/01.mp3

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
It depends, I think. An 1815 Broadwood can be great for Clementi and Dussek. But Beethoven and Broadwood were not a good combination, despite the fact that he obvously was very proud of receiving an instrument as a present.

There is an article in Early Music (couple years ago) by T. Skowroneck, about the Erard which Beethoven received as a gift in 1803. That piano was basically an English style instrument, and although it was much lighter than the Broadwood that Beethoven would receive 14 years later, it turned out that he was not very happy with it. He composed some works for/on it, like the Waldstein, but later on he complained that the instrument wasn't as supple and elastic as a Viennese action piano.
He had the action changed, but never was satisfied with it. After some years he returned to a Viennese piano. Not after that he had broken "about 78 percent" of the strings on the Erard.
Nevertheless, the characteristics of the Erard would influence Viennese piano building and Beethoven's style, and this is reflected in some of the works composed in these years. Skowroneck gives some nice examples, which also show the disadvantage of the English action: it was slooooow and the tone was muddy.

But now, Rod: would you be able to say something about the instrument played here - and perhaps, to identify the music?
It's far from easy, but I just wonder.
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/01.mp3

Ah but I am only concerned with Beethoven and the piano. Beyond this the instrument is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. I was thinking of the Broadwoods I've heard when I wrote the remark. I always check any new fortepiano recordings I see to make sure they are using Viennese school models. If it happens to be an English, the CD will for sure remain on the shelf! Assesment of the track will follow.

I believe Beethoven only attempted to have the Erard's action changed to the Viennese, but it was not undertaken as the construction of the piano did not allow it. But certainly the Erard had more influence on Beethoven's output than the Broadwood, which in terms of keyboard span Beethoven's gift was already obsolete by the time he received it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-17-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:

But now, Rod: would you be able to say something about the instrument played here - and perhaps, to identify the music?
It's far from easy, but I just wonder.
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/01.mp3

Well it would have been easier if you provided a bit more music! Certainly when the piano is attacked you can usually tell the action quite easily, but this is very delicate playing. Nevertheless it reminds me of a recording I have where the piano is also a mystery - it seems to have the characteristics of both schools of thought. I detect the possibility of quite a bold tone one associates with the Broadwood, but the sound is much more refined, like the Viennese. Perhaps this is a very late Viennese or German fortepiano - using the English/French action but with the Viennese taste for the hammers and stringing? It could be a very late Viennese, but I am not familiar enough with the Viennese actioned models from the 1840s onwards to be an authority on the sound of these. I know nothing of the French fortepianos.

If you gave me more music I could give you a more certain answer. But yes the answer regarding the piano does not at the moment 'jump off the tongue'. Regarding the music I have no idea whatsoever.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-17-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ah but I am only concerned with Beethoven and the piano. Beyond this the instrument is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. I was thinking of the Broadwoods I've heard when I wrote the remark. I always check any new fortepiano recordings I see to make sure they are using Viennese school models. If it happens to be an English, the CD will for sure remain on the shelf!

So the London Fortepiano School, which had some influence on Beethoven, doesn't interest you much? I have quite a few recordings with music by Dussek, Clementi, and others, often played on ravishing Broadwoods. One can understand from them why Tan's recording of Beethoven on the composer's Broadwood is such a failure: wrong instrument for the right composer.

I believe Beethoven only attempted to have the Erard's action changed to the Viennese, but it was not undertaken as the construction of the piano did not allow it. But certainly the Erard had more influence on Beethoven's output than the Broadwood, which in terms of keyboard span Beethoven's gift was already obsolete by the time he received it.

Yes, that's more or less what the article says as well. It also points to examples in the Waldstein, where Beethoven used some possibilities typical for the instrument, while at other points he had to limit himself, because the instrument wouldn't allow him to do what he wanted. It all shows the extreme relationship between a particular composition and the piano that was used at the time Beethoven wrote it.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well it would have been easier if you provided a bit more music! Certainly when the piano is attacked you can usually tell the action quite easily, but this is very delicate playing. Nevertheless it reminds me of a recording I have where the piano is also a mystery - it seems to have the chatacteristics of both schools of thought. I detect the possibility of quite a bold tone one associates with the Broadwood, but the sound is much more refined, like the Viennese. Perhaps this is a very late Viennese or German fortepiano - using the English/French action but with the Viennese taste for the hammers and stringing? It could be a very late Viennese, but I am not familiar enough with the Viennese actioned models from the 1840s onwards to be an authority on the sound of these. I know nothing of the French fortepianos.
If you gave me more music I could give you a more certain answer. But yes the answer regarding the piano does not at the moment 'jump off the tongue'. Regarding the music I have no idea whatsoever.

I know: this one is far from easy, it's a very short fragment easily missed while hearing the full work, but you are not that far away from the truth.
It's obvious that a modern piano would not be able to produce the spooky sound of this sample, but neither would a 1780 Stein do.

This one comes from the same recording, same piano, same composer:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/02.mp3