Mahler's re-orchestration of Beethoven's Ninth

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Exactly nothing. Wagner and other composers made wonderful use of various tubas. It was also a great rhythm instrument in early jazz, e.g. the Louis Armstrong Hot Seven recordings with Peter Briggs on tuba; until it was replaced by the plucked string double bass,

I completely agree!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I completely agree!

Yes I agree there is nothing wrong with the tuba (not partial to it as a solo instrument mind you!) - however I also think you'd agree it doesn't belong in a classical symphony.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes I agree there is nothing wrong with the tuba (not partial to it as a solo instrument mind you!) - however I also think you'd agree it doesn't belong in a classical symphony.

This is my primary point, but it is a comic instrument anyway. It would be a huge miscalculation to insert a tuba into any Beethoven orchestra.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is my primary point, but it is a comic instrument anyway. It would be a huge miscalculation to insert a tuba into any Beethoven orchestra.

I don't see it as being any more comical than, say, the bassoon. Any instrument can be used in a comical way but that is not the overall purpose of any of the instruments.

With respect to inserting them into a classical orchestra, then, yes, that would be comical.

[sjwenger]

I think if the tuba had been around in Beethoven's time, he'd have made use of it. Whether Mahler's considered opinion of how B might have used the tuba was right or not, it is always part of a good conductor's job to try, to the best of his ability, to divine what the composer meant musically by the surviving marks on papers. I found the Mahler version interesting, worth listening to. If you go to ten different orchestras (and conductors) to hear Beethoven's Ninth, you'll hear ten different musical experiences, and you'll form your judgement of the work itself based on some composite, some notion of what all ten had in common. If one is noticeably different from the other nine, I think that enhances my grasp of the work. I still have the commonalities of the other nine to work from.

If you re-read "Romeo and Juliet" after you've seen "West Side Story," you'll know which is Shakespeare and which is Bernstein, but I think you'll understand Shakespeare more easily after Bernstein.
- Susan

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[Rod]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I think if the tuba had been around in Beethoven's time, he'd have made use of it. Whether Mahler's considered opinion of how B might have used the tuba was right or not, it is always part of a good conductor's job to try, to the best of his ability, to divine what the composer meant musically by the surviving marks on papers. I found the Mahler version interesting, worth listening to. If you go to ten different orchestras (and conductors) to hear Beethoven's Ninth, you'll hear ten different musical experiences, and you'll form your judgement of the work itself based on some composite, some notion of what all ten had in common. If one is noticeably different from the other nine, I think that enhances my grasp of the work. I still have the commonalities of the other nine to work from.

If you re-read "Romeo and Juliet" after you've seen "West Side Story," you'll know which is Shakespeare and which is Bernstein, but I think you'll understand Shakespeare more easily after Bernstein.
- Susan

I'm happy to do without Bernstein or Mahler thank you.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Mahler's version of the Ninth does not replace the original, though that might have been Mahler's and Wagner's intentions in their rewritings of it. The original is there for us to hear. Why not regard these rewritings as variations and enjoy them (if one is inclined to) as such? I look forward to hearing both these rewritings at some point. We do not mind when a composer uses an earlier composer's melody as a subject for variations. I would look at these rewrites the same way.

And, of course, I look at them as good provocations to get Rod going. Anything which does that (and there are as many possibilities as there are compositions not by Beethoven and Handel, plus non-original-instruments versions of Beethoven and Handel) is worth a posting.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-15-2006).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

And, exactly what is wrong with a tuba?

Once I heard 'Fur Elise' performed on a tuba at a downtown festival, uh, well, it wasn't the greatest.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Mahler's version of the Ninth does not replace the original, though that might have been Mahler's and Wagner's intentions in their rewritings of it. The original is there for us to hear. Why not regard these rewritings as variations and enjoy them (if one is inclined to) as such? I look forward to hearing both these rewritings at some point. We do not mind when a composer uses an earlier composer's melody as a subject for variations. I would look at these rewrites the same way.

I agree with that, as long as nobody ever will say that Mahler's retouchings are improvements of the original.
I also enjoy the many rewritings of Bach's music, like those done by Busoni and Stokovsky. They offer some insight in the way Bach was seen a century ago. This counts as well for Weingartner's grotesque orchestration of Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata. Sounds like a big joke now, but not back in those days.

[sjwenger]

> And, of course, I look at them as good provocations to get Rod going. Anything which does that (and there are as many possibilities as there are compositions not by Beethoven and Handel, plus non-original-instruments versions of Beethoven and Handel) is worth a posting.
>

I'm not a troll or a gnome or whatever you call the internet provocateur - I genuinely enjoyed this CD and did not mean to upset anyone.


>Once I heard 'Fur Elise' performed on a tuba at a downtown festival, uh, well, it wasn't the greatest.

That puts me in mind of a cartoon, I think it was "Far Side:" a picture of a dead Alpenhorn player laying on the ground, and an irate man is asking "all right, who made the request for 'Flight of the Bumblebee?!'



------------------
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
susanwenger@yahoo.com

To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Joy:
Once I heard 'Fur Elise' performed on a tuba at a downtown festival, uh, well, it wasn't the greatest.

I don't think I'd like to hear that one!!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
> And, of course, I look at them as good provocations to get Rod going. Anything which does that (and there are as many possibilities as there are compositions not by Beethoven and Handel, plus non-original-instruments versions of Beethoven and Handel) is worth a posting.
>

I'm not a troll or a gnome or whatever you call the internet provocateur - I genuinely enjoyed this CD and did not mean to upset anyone.


>Once I heard 'Fur Elise' performed on a tuba at a downtown festival, uh, well, it wasn't the greatest.

That puts me in mind of a cartoon, I think it was "Far Side:" a picture of a dead Alpenhorn player laying on the ground, and an irate man is asking "all right, who made the request for 'Flight of the Bumblebee?!'

I think that your comments are valid and that it is good to listen to other ideas regarding the music we like. For instance, with the Mahler re-orchestration one might hear different parts that are stressed more so--or made more clearly (regardless of the original intention of the composer) and it doesn't hurt to give these things a critical listen to. I listened to the Schumann Symphony No. 2 re-write with that intension and when I heard it I returned with satisfaction back to the original.

Thank you for the post; I didn't know that Mahler had rescored the 9th; maybe I'll have to give that a listen sometime.

[Peter]

I've thought a bit more about this and I think we have to put this into historical context - it is so easy to react with horror at such a thing in our times of puritanical authenticity (whatever that may be). There is a long tradition of this - Bach, Mozart (just think of his reworkings of Messiah), Mahler, Elgar - all are 'guilty'.

No orchestra today would dare perform a Mozart symphony as he actually requested - 40 Violins, 10 violas, 6 celli, 10 double-basses and double wind on each part. Of course that was rarely available, but we are convinced by the HIP movement that the tiny forces actually used were what the composer wanted instead of what he had to make do with. It also indicates that a heavier bass line was expected.



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'Man know thyself'