Mahler's re-orchestration of Beethoven's Ninth

[sjwenger]

I recently bought a CD of Mahler's re-orchestration of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9. It's really interesting - lots of good percussion, and he really speeded up some sections, notably the "terror concert." Per the program notes, Mahler added another set of woodwinds for doubling, four more French horns and two more trumpets, a tuba to create a weightier bass line mostly in the final movement, and an added pair of timpani for doubling certain passages. He changed some of theexpression marks and bowings, and introduced muted horns and trumpets (a device not used by Beethoven). He suppressed some of the original timpani notes and even entire passages in certain groups of instruments, and eliminated the initial eight bar statement from the repeat of the Scherzo.

Any opinions on this version?

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[Peter]

A red rag to a bull on this site I think! I haven't heard Mahler's version, but it was borne out of a late romantic misconception that size was everything and a belief that Beethoven's deafness is responsible for 'miscalculations', as though someone who could write such a work in the first place made miscalculations!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I recently bought a CD of Mahler's re-orchestration of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9. It's really interesting - lots of good percussion, and he really speeded up some sections, notably the "terror concert." Per the program notes, Mahler added another set of woodwinds for doubling, four more French horns and two more trumpets, a tuba to create a weightier bass line mostly in the final movement, and an added pair of timpani for doubling certain passages. He changed some of theexpression marks and bowings, and introduced muted horns and trumpets (a device not used by Beethoven). He suppressed some of the original timpani notes and even entire passages in certain groups of instruments, and eliminated the initial eight bar statement from the repeat of the Scherzo.

Any opinions on this version?

Sue, did you enjoy this version of Mahler's?



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I recently bought a CD of Mahler's re-orchestration of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9. It's really interesting - lots of good percussion, and he really speeded up some sections, notably the "terror concert." Per the program notes, Mahler added another set of woodwinds for doubling, four more French horns and two more trumpets, a tuba to create a weightier bass line mostly in the final movement, and an added pair of timpani for doubling certain passages. He changed some of theexpression marks and bowings, and introduced muted horns and trumpets (a device not used by Beethoven). He suppressed some of the original timpani notes and even entire passages in certain groups of instruments, and eliminated the initial eight bar statement from the repeat of the Scherzo.

Any opinions on this version?

I've heard some of it. This is a mockery, a farce. Anything with a tuba is in itself a joke before a single note is written. And what in God's name is the 'terror concert'? And I wouldn't compare tempi as most Beethoven performances are seriously flawed in this respect with regard to B's own indications.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[sjwenger]

> Sue, did you enjoy this version of Mahler's?

Yes, I always like Beethoven : }

This was a different perspective on an old favorite. There were enough differences from "standard" Beethoven's Ninth to be very interesting. It's not going to be my favorite (currently Simon Rattle, but I'm hopeful for the forthcoming Osmo Vanska), but it's an interesting treat for sure.

------------------
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
susanwenger@yahoo.com

To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

[Rod]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
> Sue, did you enjoy this version of Mahler's?

Yes, I always like Beethoven : }

Can you even tell Beethoven from Mahler? For the record the brass (especially the horns) should never be muted with Beethoven, how many times have I said this here?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-13-2006).]

[Gurn Blanston]

I have the video of it with the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi, so I had the dubious pleasure of watching it as well as listening to. I was horrified, I must say Bigger is NOT better, and the reorchestration, tempo changes etc. were scandalous abuses of one of the greatest works in Western Music. Mahler was a twit.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've heard some of it. This is a mockery, a farce. Anything with a tuba is in itself a joke before a single note is written. And what in God's name is the 'terror concert'? And I wouldn't compare tempi as most Beethoven performances are seriously flawed in this respect with regard to B's own indications.

But they were period instruments, Rod! Well, at least for a modern orchestra, heh heh!

[Sorrano]

Mahler had the idea that as a good orchestrator that he could "improve" everyone else's mistakes. I've listened to his Schumann 2nd Symphony and actually find it enjoyable, but I do prefer the original. I am afraid of even trying his version of the 9th. I can imagine something along the scale of his own 8th symphony. Yikes!

[Frankli]

There is an interesting article in a recent issue of '19th Century Music' (vol. XXIX/3) about Mahler's retouchings - though not just of the Ninth.
There was much criticism on his retouchings (and right so), but most of it stemmed from antisemitic sentiments, which were partly the result of Wagner's horrible essay "Das Judentum in der Musik".

An abstract of the article is here: http://tinyurl.com/zhc2s

[Joy]

Regarding 'bigger is not necessarily better' didn't Wagner make Beethoven's 9th Symphony much bigger by reorchestrating the whole thing and by adding several more chorus members? I wonder how that version sounded?

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've heard some of it. This is a mockery, a farce. Anything with a tuba is in itself a joke before a single note is written. And what in God's name is the 'terror concert'? And I wouldn't compare tempi as most Beethoven performances are seriously flawed in this respect with regard to B's own indications.

Need we say more?



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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Rod]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
Need we say more?

.............

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've heard some of it. This is a mockery, a farce. Anything with a tuba is in itself a joke before a single note is written. And what in God's name is the 'terror concert'? And I wouldn't compare tempi as most Beethoven performances are seriously flawed in this respect with regard to B's own indications.

And, exactly what is wrong with a tuba?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

And, exactly what is wrong with a tuba?

Exactly nothing. Wagner and other composers made wonderful use of various tubas. It was also a great rhythm instrument in early jazz, e.g. the Louis Armstrong Hot Seven recordings with Peter Briggs on tuba; until it was replaced by the plucked string double bass,