Piano version of Violin Concerto

[SR]

This past weekend some friends and I met for our regular day of listening to and discussing music. We played a CD of Beethoven's piano transcription of the Violin Concerto Op61. I found it rather disturbing as Op61 is amoung my favorite works by any composer. I have always felt it is the greatest Violin concerto written. I felt the piece for piano did not work at any level and rather than savoring it as I do in original form I was agonizing over how much longer this would take. The 6 minute cadenza about did me in.
I understand it was a commision from Clementi inteded for English publication.
How do others here feel about this transcription ?

Steve

[Nightklavier]

I like it as an alternative. I've seen it also titled a "Piano Concerto No. 6" and find no problems with the piano part. I have the Naxos recording so I doubt I'm hearing it played best, but it's certainly intriguing to me. Sometimes it even sounds like a different work to me.

However, I enthusiastically and ultimately agree that the original Violin Concerto is indomitable. Even though I like the "Op. 61a" I don't think the piano adds to the grandeur; it doesn't detract, but it doesn't enhance the music to my ears either.

I certainly wouldn't go as far as "agonizing" over it because it's still Beethoven. And Beethoven on a harmonica would still be worth listening to, in my opinion.

[Sorrano]

I quite enjoyed it, particularly the "timpani" cadenza. I wouldn't replace the violin concerto, obviously, but it was interesting to me.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
I certainly wouldn't go as far as "agonizing" over it because it's still Beethoven. And Beethoven on a harmonica would still be worth listening to, in my opinion.

It could be an arrengement for ceramic plates and 3 people whistling, if it came from him it would still amaze me.



------------------
"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
It could be an arrengement for ceramic plates and 3 people whistling, if it came from him it would still amaze me.

Exactly - An ensemble of people farting, burping and hiccuping the Eroica symphony would still elevate mankind.

[paulverv]

Originally posted by SR:
This past weekend some friends and I met for our regular day of listening to and discussing music. We played a CD of Beethoven's piano transcription of the Violin Concerto Op61. I found it rather disturbing as Op61 is amoung my favorite works by any composer. I have always felt it is the greatest Violin concerto written. I felt the piece for piano did not work at any level and rather than savoring it as I do in original form I was agonizing over how much longer this would take. The 6 minute cadenza about did me in.
I understand it was a commision from Clementi inteded for English publication.
How do others here feel about this transcription ?

Steve

The piano and violin are simply not inter-changeable; the weekness can be heard when playing the symphonies for two or four hands on the piano. The string parts simply don't cut it. I never want to hear this transcription.
Paul

[Peter]

I'm not too fond of it myself - however, the cadenza is inspired and a transcription of this for violin and timpani exists which is vastly preferable to Joachim's effort. I have also heard a recording of this concerto with clarinet - Beethoven's original intention for violin is by far the best!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Athea]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
Exactly - An ensemble of people farting, burping and hiccuping the Eroica symphony would still elevate mankind.

Yes, selection of instruments can't change power of composition so much, but I think that Beethoven knew what he did when he chose the orchestral performance for some of his works (including Eroica).

Back to the topic - I like timpani cadenza, but original version for violin sounds much better for me. Violin is simply violin.

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
This past weekend some friends and I met for our regular day of listening to and discussing music. We played a CD of Beethoven's piano transcription of the Violin Concerto Op61. I found it rather disturbing as Op61 is amoung my favorite works by any composer. I have always felt it is the greatest Violin concerto written. I felt the piece for piano did not work at any level and rather than savoring it as I do in original form I was agonizing over how much longer this would take. The 6 minute cadenza about did me in.
I understand it was a commision from Clementi inteded for English publication.
How do others here feel about this transcription ?

Steve

You were agonising over how much longer it would take because you were probably hearing the concerto played at half tempo, as is usually the case with the violin version. However the piano by its very nature survives this treatment less effectively than the violin. Played at the proper tempo and with a good fortepiano the piece will work nicely, though alas I have never heard it performed this way. Beethoven never went out of his way to re-write the concerto for the fp, put the piece can still be effective and performable.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-31-2006).]

[SR]

Originally posted by Rod:
You were agonising over how much longer it would take because you were probably hearing the concerto played at half tempo

That's part of it. The performance was done at a very slow tenpo. I would have to listen at least a few more times to be sure but on the whole it didn't seem that the orchestration was altered, at least not to a large degree. The choices Beethoven made to compliment and accompany a single violin did not work nearly as well with the more percussive and different tonal characteristics of a piano. In my opinion he would have done better to use the Violin Concerto as basis for a piano sonata, no orchestra.

At any rate it was a different experience to first hear it. Those few seconds of "yes I know this piece", followed by "I love this piece" followed by "but whats wrong"?

Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
That's part of it. The performance was done at a very slow tenpo. I would have to listen at least a few more times to be sure but on the whole it didn't seem that the orchestration was altered, at least not to a large degree. The choices Beethoven made to compliment and accompany a single violin did not work nearly as well with the more percussive and different tonal characteristics of a piano. In my opinion he would have done better to use the Violin Concerto as basis for a piano sonata, no orchestra.

At any rate it was a different experience to first hear it. Those few seconds of "yes I know this piece", followed by "I love this piece" followed by "but whats wrong"?

Steve

Well, played 'authentic' the concerto is a far more militaristic experience than the syrupy gypsy serenade we are used to. This is exampled by B's creation of the piano/drum cadenza. In this context the piano part is more acceptable. You just have to use your imagination, something I am forced to do all the time listening to woeful Beethoven interpretations like we hear for example with the violin concerto. But Bruggen's CD with the Orch of the C18th on Phillips is fantastic. Here the concerto cuts like a knife.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-31-2006).]

[jdidlock]

Barenboim's performance of the cadenza is, I think, electrifying.

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by SR:
[I understand it was a commision from Clementi inteded for English publication.

Steve[/B]

Clementi acquired for £200 on 20 April 1807, the english rights for the fourth Piano Concerto, the three 'Razumovsky' Quartets, the Violin Concerto, as well as an arrangement to be made of it by Beethoven as this Piano Concerto, and the Coriolan Overture.

Beethoven willingness to accept this is surprising, but there may have been a precedent. There is a piano cadenza in G which is thematically related to the existing fragment of the early Violin Concerto on C, WoO 5.

------------------
Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be