The Marriage of Figaro

[Sorrano]

With respect to borrowing check this link as it has examples that may be pertinent to the discussion. I brought this up in a previous thread but apparently was glossed over.
http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/borrowing/browsekl.html

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Salieri was referring to the work of a teenage student - he never heard the mature works of Schubert. I would say Schubert didn't find his own individual voice until around the age of 25 (despite some outstanding examples from earlier such as Gretchen am Spinnrade or Erlkonig).

As for a 'Pot-pourri of styles' Cooper lists these as direct influences on Beethoven -
Symphony - Haydn
Piano Concerto - Mozart
Violin Concerto - Viotti
Chamber music - Haydn and Mozart
Piano Sonata - Clementi
Opera - Mozart and Cherubini
Song - C.P.E.Bach
Fugue - J.S.Bach

Of course there were many many other composers who influenced Beethoven such as Handel, Dussek, Palestrina, Emanuel Aloys Förster, Cramer - the list goes on!

A potpourri of influences is not a potpourri of styles in Beethoven's case.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

A potpourri of influences is not a potpourri of styles in Beethoven's case.

Nor in Schubert's - he has his own voice as do all great composers.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
With respect to borrowing check this link as it has examples that may be pertinent to the discussion. I brought this up in a previous thread but apparently was glossed over.
http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/borrowing/browsekl.html

Thank you Sorrano for an informative article - it shows what a complex issue this really is and also reveals the universality of art. That one third of Beethoven's works are based on self borrowings is quite remarkable.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-14-2006).]

[Joy]

Yes, thanks Sorrano, quite remarkable are the comparisons they list.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
With respect to borrowing check this link as it has examples that may be pertinent to the discussion. I brought this up in a previous thread but apparently was glossed over.
http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/borrowing/browsekl.html

Not by me; great list!
But actually the link only shows a part of the complete bibliography. This is the link to all of it:
http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/borrowi...hor_index.html

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Nor in Schubert's - he has his own voice as do all great composers.

Well maybe, maybe not. You know me and Schubert don't mix!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

'I say it Robert because it is what you have been doing - you have mentioned a Luchesi/Grossman connection several times in a deliberate attempt to suggest Luchesi involvement in the Franfurt production of the play and hence to bolster your claims of a wider conspiracy'.

Statements like this are a bit like mud slinging. They sound compelling but are really not right. I can ignore them and move on with what I am committed to do, or can be bogged down in a detailed reply. Please add your questions/requests for clarification on Bonn/Grossmann to your list already made and I promise to do my utmost to justify what I have said later.

The simple fact is, Peter, that in many respects you do not really understand what I am saying. Despite a real attempt to simplify often complex things you latch on to the Frankfurt issue as 'proof' that I am somehow 'bolstering claims of a wider conspiracy'. No, no, no. You really must try to read more clearly.

First, I have repeatedly said that the Frankfurt issue is not central. I have said it (the production at Frankfurt begs an explanation and that, at this date, nobody really knows what sort of production it was). I have said that it (the Frankfurt production) is obviously highly relevant to the true story of 'Le Nozze di Figaro'. In fact I have urged Mozart scholarship to study it just yesterday. And I have made various other statements like this. But it, the Grossmann production at Frankfurt of 1785. is not, never has been, and never will be central issues. The central issues are (and I obviously need to repeat them yet again) -

1. That Andrea Luchesi was from the time of his arrival in Bonn in the early 1770's until the time of his death an active agent for procurement of and often for the production of musical works that would create/sustain the musical reputation of first Joseph Haydn - many works of his ('Haydn') being actually composed for Haydn by Sammartini, Boccherini and Luchesi himself.

2.That Luchesi was a central person in this business, a business overseen by Georg Vogler. A business that involved a network of composers of which JM Kraus was only one.

3. That this same Luchesi was also involved, heavily, in creation of the mature reputation of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and, through Bonn, (particularly from 1784 onwards) also supplied many musical compositions to him (Mozart) with which, today, Mozart is still being falsely attributed.

4. That the Haydn/Mozart scores now at Modena are a part only of the whole picture. (The Mozart works there being symphonies and the Hadyn works being symphonies and masses).

5. That Mozart did not write 'Le Nozze di Figaro', the opera that was premiered in Vienna in May of 1786.

Now, in respect of the impact of Bonn (i.e. Luchesi) on Haydn and Mozart's later career (and of Bonn's impact on earlier stages of those careers) I would be happy to elaborate on this at length but at this particular time, since I am determined to finish a3 part submission on the Bonn archives 1784-1794 first, I must ask you to avoid rash claims that I am trying widen anything. That a group of composers composed for Haydn and Mozart is, in my view, a plain fact. In the case of Mozart the number of such composers is in excess of 12. In the case of Haydn it is closer to 4.

I do not think I can be clearer in this. Luchesi was central to this activity in the 1770's up until closure of the Bonn Kappelle in 1794. The creating of posthumous reputations for both Haydn and Mozart have further obsured such things but, at Modena and elsewhere it is now possible to show this is the case, despite obvious efforts having been made to hide such facts.

I do not ask you to defend the iconic status of either Haydn or Mozart. Such a thing would be beyond anyone, so riddled is it with contradictions, falsehoods and downright fakery. So stuffed is Koechel with works that are clearly not Mozart's that you would need buckets of paracetomol. I simply ask that you allow me to complete the 3 part post on the Bonn archives, at which point I will address your questions ignoring none of them and never once needing to 'expand conspiracies' or to 'prove' that which I never actually said. Frankfurt is a fascinating case. It was just as fascinating in 1790 when it, again, plays a part in works written for the death and accession of emperors. But none of those things are central.

Finally, I have already posted saying that in my view the opera 'Le Nozze di Figaro' was composed by JM Kraus. Not by Mozart. Not by Luchesi. But by JM Kraus. And Kraus (I believe) was part of the network to which I have often refered.

Regards




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-14-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
The simple fact is, Peter, that in many respects you do not really understand what I am saying. Despite a real attempt to simplify often complex things you latch on to the Frankfurt issue as 'proof' that I am somehow 'bolstering claims of a wider conspiracy'. No, no, no. You really must try to read more clearly.

Your whole theory is utter tosh and quite frankly I for one am getting fed up with your domination of this board with your ludicrous theories! Any further posts on this subject will be deleted - we have indulged you long enough and you can find another forum to take over.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-14-2006).]