The Marriage of Figaro

[robert newman]

Dear Haydnfan,

Please poke as many holes as you please. We have a version of events that has simply never been subjected to detailed criticism on its core assumptions. If you can provide fair criticism that would be great.

May I suggest (since you wish to defend Mozart's traditional reputation) that you consider, for example the career of F.D'Anthoin (brother in law of Kapellmeister Luchesi) a composer refered to in 'Cramer's Magazine' (published at Bonn in 1783 and refered to on this site only recently), since this D'Anthoin/e was in fact a pen-name of Luchesi himself. (Luchesi used that name as has been said here previously). It was in connnection with works such as 'Lanassa, or the widow of Malabar', a comedy of Le Mierre that music was set by this same 'D'Anthoine' (of arias and choruses) and which, according to convention also used music attributed to Mozart used in Mozart's 'Thomas, King in Egypt'.

Then too there is the 'D'Anthoine' music for 'Otto der Schutz' a singspiel in 3 acts staged at Bonn in 1792. Also 'D'Anthoine's' 'Der Furst und sein Folk' - an opera in two acts staged at Bonn in 1792. And finally, the music used in the operetta 'Ende gut, alles gut' by the same F. D'Anthoine 1793/4

Honestly, the more criticism the better !

Regards

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
According to JW Wolter -

'The summer season of the Grossmann company began in 1785 on 29th March at Frankfurt and lasted there till 12th May. The most important theatrical event at this time was performance of Beaumarchais's 'Figaro'....Immediately after first performance on 11th April at Frankfurt the theatre of the Principality of Magonza had received a permit to stage the same.

To perform this satirical comedy Grossmann decided to turn it over to the Prince, entrusting the censorship of Figaro to the advisor von Mors while he carried out some variations to the work...It was in this same version that 'Figaro' was presented to the public of Magonza for the first time on 23rd February 1786.

(J Wolter 'GFW Grossmann' (Cologne - 1901, p.57)

So what? This does not mean Mozart did not write the music for Figaro. It means there was a performance of the play at Frankfurt and one at Magonza. Interestingly though your article doesn't mention Luchesi and says that the decision to turn it over to the Prince was Grossman's.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-13-2006).]

[robert newman]

No Peter, the Frankfurt material doesn't mean Mozart wrote the Marriage of Figaro and it doesn't mean he did not. It means we, here, now, are starting to appreciate the context within which the the 4 act opera was actually written. A context which included this performance of a 5 act version of Beaumarchais's play in German fully 1 year before the opera was premiered to an Italian libretto at Vienna.

It is perhaps strange that Bonn (in the form of the Grossmann group) was involved. But, the truth is, the network that wrote works for Mozart during the 1780's and which used the Bonn Kapellmeister as a principal source were involved here in the first German staging of the play by the Bonn theatre group of Grossmann. That is its relevance. The reputation of people such as Kraus or D'Anthoine (the latter being a figure who never features at all during Mozart's career but who preceded it and who continued after Mozart's death) is yet another angle to the solution. A network of composers feeding the reputation of Mozart and doing so via the main contact point of Bonn - a network that was operational in Mozart's career up to and including Die Zauberflote of late 1791.

Regards

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

What you or I think about Mozart was not really the point of my post. The point was to show what Mozart's own contemporaries thought. That is what THEY thought.

Dear Robert;

You found two contemporaries that do not mention "Figaro." I am sure that there are many contemporaries that do mention "Figaro." You know for a fact that Kraus wrote to his sister reporting that Mozart was composing "Figaro." What you fail to realize is that the lack of mentioning "Figaro" reflects only upon the editing of the article's author, not upon the composer.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

No Peter, the Frankfurt material doesn't mean Mozart wrote the Marriage of Figaro and it doesn't mean he did not. It means we, here, now, are starting to appreciate the context within which the the 4 act opera was actually written. A context which included this performance of a 5 act version of Beaumarchais's play in German fully 1 year before the opera was premiered to an Italian libretto at Vienna.

It is perhaps strange that Bonn (in the form of the Grossmann group) was involved. But, the truth is, the network that wrote works for Mozart during the 1780's and which used the Bonn Kapellmeister as a principal source were involved here in the first German staging of the play by the Bonn theatre group of Grossmann. That is its relevance. The reputation of people such as Kraus or D'Anthoine (the latter being a figure who never features at all during Mozart's career but who preceded it and who continued after Mozart's death) is yet another angle to the solution. A network of composers feeding the reputation of Mozart and doing so via the main contact point of Bonn - a network that was operational in Mozart's career up to and including Die Zauberflote of late 1791.

Regards

There was not a network of composers supplying Mozart with music - you have not provided any evidence and continually prove evasive when asked to do so. Your theories are based on speculation, assumptions and willful misinterpretation. This whole thread has become a diversion because you will not or cannot answer the questions I raised in the other one. Questions that are vital if you are to convince anyone other than yourself.



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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

That may well be true.

But, of course, 'Le Nozze di Figaro' was surely the summit of Mozart's public success during his entire lifetime. It was 'Figaro' that catapulted him to the real fame of his adult life and which was far more written about by his contemporaries than, say, either of the other two da Ponte collaborations of Don Giovanni and Cosi Fan Tutte. It is perfectly true that the piano concerto series in Vienna (c.1783-7) cemented his reputation in that city. But Figaro was surely his crowning moment. For writers of the eminence of Forkel and even for the Schlichtegroll obituary to have missed reference to it, well, I thought it unsual enough to have posted pointing it out. Yes, of course, there is no doubt whatsoever that it was, as far as the public were concerned, a triumph for da Ponte and for Mozart.

Regards

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Robert;

You found two contemporaries that do not mention "Figaro." I am sure that there are many contemporaries that do mention "Figaro." You know for a fact that Kraus wrote to his sister reporting that Mozart was composing "Figaro." What you fail to realize is that the lack of mentioning "Figaro" reflects only upon the editing of the article's author, not upon the composer.


Hofrat

You're absolutely correct Hofrat and it is another example of what I mean by Robert's willful misrepresenting of the facts.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-13-2006).]

[robert newman]

Peter,

You say I am evading your questions. Having invited questions from you (three times in as many days) I think this a little extreme. The questions you have posted (reference the Bonn archives) have to some extent been answered by Part 1 and I am committed to posting part 2 and 3 as promised.

In the meantime, the arrival of the Figaro material today (which was, you may agree, sent for because you personally are to receive a photocopy) was reason for this thread on 'The Marriage of Figaro'. And here we are, still talking of that opera here.

I think I have introduced the catalogue C.53.1 and have described the context within which it was written (during the last decade of the Bonn Kapelle). I have indicated that it contains reference to composers by name and have also provided what I think may be interesting information on other aspects of the material from Bonn now in Modena.

But I readily admit that, as far as your specific questions are concerned, I have not yet finished parts 2 and 3. I further admit that many of the questions you raise may not have any solution even when those parts are finished. But I repeat that, in my understanding of this material, Neefe gave a number to each of the works over which there is dispute at Modena, which, if true, goes very far to an answer.

Best regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:

Hi Robert,

...Also Schubert was accused by Salieri of stealing music from Haydn...today, I hardly think that any of us would accuse him of this.

I can believe it, I've mentioned here a few times that Schubert often sounds like a potpourri of other composer's music. Sometimes when I have heard a piece on radio I thought must be by Mozart, it turned out to be Schubert!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can believe it, I've mentioned here a few times that Schubert often sounds like a potpourri of other composer's music. Sometimes when I have heard a piece on radio I thought must be by Mozart, it turned out to be Schubert!

I thought you at least would know the difference between influence and direct theft as was sometimes the case with Handel. Every great composer has used others as models - Schubert died at the age of 31 and by then had evolved an individual voice that can be described clearly as Schubertian. Beethoven's first three piano concertos and the first 2 symphonies are not worlds away from Mozart and Haydn - Schubert's 8th and 9th symphonies are.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-14-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I thought you at least would know the difference between influence and direct theft as was sometimes the case with Handel. Every great composer has used others as models - Schubert died at the age of 31 and by then had evolved an individual voice that can be described clearly as Schubertian. Beethoven's first three piano concertos and the first 2 symphonies are not worlds away from Mozart and Haydn - Schubert's 8th and 9th symphonies are.

Yes but there is a difference between being influenced and direct imitation of the style as must have been Salieri's point. You are well aware that Beethoven's early concertos and chamber music are very different to Mozart's overall.

Cases of 'direct theft' (ie wholesale theft of a movement for example) are few and far between in Handel - regardless of the source you always know you are listening to Handel by the time he has finished with it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

3. It describes the production as being performed by 'the Grossmann Schauspieler group'- the group ultimately directed from Bonn by Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi.

A further misrepresentation - Max Franz dissolved the National theatre at Bonn and it did not reopen until 1789. For the 1785 season he engaged Bohm and his company, and in 1786 actors from Cassel. Meanwhile Grossman had formed a new company and engaged Burgmuller as his music director. Luchesi had absolutely no direct involvement at this stage with the Grossman company.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes but there is a difference between being influenced and direct imitation of the style as must have been Salieri's point. You are well aware that Beethoven's early concertos and chamber music are very different to Mozart's overall.

Cases of 'direct theft' (ie wholesale theft of a movement for example) are few and far between in Handel - regardless of the source you always know you are listening to Handel by the time he has finished with it.

Salieri was referring to the work of a teenage student - he never heard the mature works of Schubert. I would say Schubert didn't find his own individual voice until around the age of 25 (despite some outstanding examples from earlier such as Gretchen am Spinnrade or Erlkonig).

As for a 'Pot-pourri of styles' Cooper lists these as direct influences on Beethoven -
Symphony - Haydn
Piano Concerto - Mozart
Violin Concerto - Viotti
Chamber music - Haydn and Mozart
Piano Sonata - Clementi
Opera - Mozart and Cherubini
Song - C.P.E.Bach
Fugue - J.S.Bach

Of course there were many many other composers who influenced Beethoven such as Handel, Dussek, Palestrina, Emanuel Aloys Förster, Cramer - the list goes on!

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Nobody is ''misrepresenting'' anyone and I do wish you would stop saying this. I did not say there was 'direct' contact. I said the Kapellmeister in Bonn, Luchesi, was aware of the Grossmann groups work. In fact, as everyone knows, reorganisation of theatrical and theatre groups was a big feature of the period 1784-6. The premiere of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' from the newly revived Italian group is a further case in point.

At Modena we have index of theatrical works, the, 'Catalogus von der kurfuerstliche Theatre Bibliothek' (reference C.69.1) that contains information on Bonn theatrical work right up until the year before the Frankfurt 'Figaro' - i.e. up until 1784 for example

But if you want a short essay on the Grossmann group and its association with the Bonn chapel please let me know. I do not dogmatically say they were in daily contact by mobile telephone even before 1785. Grossmann was now, I agree, independent in 1785. I simply say the Grossmann group had a history in which the Bonn chapel strongly features. That there had been a long association and that there still was, with Bonn.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-14-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Nobody is ''misrepresenting'' anyone and I do wish you would stop saying this. I did not say there was 'direct' contact. I said the Kapellmeister in Bonn, Luchesi, was aware of the Grossmann groups work. In fact, as everyone knows, reorganisation of theatrical and theatre groups was a big feature of the period 1784-6. The premiere of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' from the newly revived Italian group is a further case in point.

At Modena we have index of theatrical works, the, 'Catalogus von der kurfuerstliche Theatre Bibliothek' (reference C.69.1) that contains information on Bonn theatrical work right up until the year before the Frankfurt 'Figaro' - i.e. up until 1784 for example

But if you want a short essay on the Grossmann group and its association with the Bonn chapel please let me know. I do not dogmatically say they were in daily contact by mobile telephone even before 1785. Grossmann was now, I agree, independent in 1785. I simply say the Grossmann group had a history in which the Bonn chapel strongly features. That there had been a long association and that there still was, with Bonn.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-14-2006).]

I say it Robert because it is what you have been doing - you have mentioned a Luchesi/Grossman connection several times in a deliberate attempt to suggest Luchesi involvement in the Franfurt production of the play and hence to bolster your claims of a wider conspiracy. I think saying "the group ultimately directed from Bonn by Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi" is misleading and untrue and at odds with your admission now that "Grossmann was now, I agree, independent in 1785".

It is a prime example of you having arrived at your conclusion and your determination to twist the facts to make them fit.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-14-2006).]