The Marriage of Figaro

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

As requested I have received today from Italy an A4 sized copy of the remarkable playbill for 'Der lustige Tag oder Figaro's Hochzeit' staged on 11th April 1785 at Frankfurt am Main.

This document came with a series of notes from Prof. Giorgio Taboga. The playbill gives us the certainty that this work was -

1. 'A comedy in 5 acts of Caron de Beaumarchais'

2. It names the cast

3. It describes the production as being performed by 'the Grossmann Schauspieler group'- the group ultimately directed from Bonn by Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi.

4. Grossmann is himself a member of the cast.

I will arrange for you to receive this through Rod at our next London meeting.

I might also mention the following -

a) In a reference to Mozart in the Musical Almanac for Germany in the year 1789 (published at Leipzig, 1788, we find no reference to Le Nozze di Figaro -

'- Mozart (JJ Wolfgang) seit 1787 Capellmeister in Wien'

In fact the article lists his notable musical works to date as being -

'Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail' ist 1785 gedruckt. Auch sind seit 1784 verschiedene Sinfonien, Quartette und Sonatensammlungen nebst Concerten furs Clavier offentlich bekannt geworden'
(JN Forkel)

Furthermore, after Mozart's death, in the Necrology made by Friedrich von Schlichtegroll for the date of'5th December' is an entry Johannes Chrystomus Wolfgang Gottlieb Mozart (first published 1793) and a brief list of Mozart's musical achievements including the operas Idomeneo and The Magic Flute. But Mozart is not credited there also with the opera Le Nozze di Figaro.

Regards



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-13-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Peter,

As requested I have received today from Italy an A4 sized copy of the remarkable playbill for 'Der lustige Tag oder Figaro's Hochzeit' staged on 11th April 1785 at Frankfurt am Main.

This document came with a series of notes from Prof. Giorgio Taboga. The playbill gives us the certainty that this work was -

1. 'A comedy in 5 acts of Caron de Beaumarchais'

2. It names the cast

3. It describes the production as being performed by 'the Grossmann Schauspieler group'- the group ultimately directed from Bonn by Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi.

4. Grossmann is himself a member of the cast.

I will arrange for you to receive this through Rod at our next London meeting.

I might also mention the following -

a) In a reference to Mozart in the Musical Almanac for Germany in the year 1789 (published at Leipzig, 1788, we find no reference to Le Nozze di Figaro -

'- Mozart (JJ Wolfgang) seit 1787 Capellmeister in Wien'

In fact the article lists his notable musical works to date as being -

'Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail' ist 1785 gedruckt. Auch sind seit 1784 verschiedene Sinfonien, Quartette und Sonatensammlungen nebst Concerten furs Clavier offentlich bekannt geworden'
(JN Forkel)

Furthermore, after Mozart's death, in the Necrology made by Friedrich von Schlichtegroll for the date of'5th December' is an entry Johannes Chrystomus Wolfgang Gottlieb Mozart (first published 1793) and a brief list of Mozart's musical achievements including the operas Idomeneo and The Magic Flute. But Mozart is not credited there also with the opera Le Nozze di Figaro.

Regards

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-13-2006).]

So presumably then this was a performance of the play not the music written by Mozart which is in 4 acts? You are of course aware that Schikaneder also planned a performance in Vienna that was stopped by the Emperor. Perhaps there were other performances in Germany? A performance of the play doesn't seem to me to be of any shattering consequence regarding Mozart's authorship of the music performed in Vienna 1786. As to his not being mentioned as the composer of Figaro in two journals I have no idea - since the work had already been performed in Vienna and Prague to great acclaim, well so what?

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Yes Peter,on 31st January 1785 the Emperor Joseph 2nd wrote to Count Pergen (later head of the state Secret Police) saying -

'I have learned that the attached Figaro has been proposed in German translation for the theatre....Now, since this piece contains multiple indecencies I maintain that a critic has to reject it all or you yourselves should make alterations on which your responsibility is assumed for making them, taking in to account the effects of doing so'.

Schickaneder's group had planned to stage such a work on 3rd February 1785 at the Kartnertortheater.

And yet, we see a few months later at Frankfurt am Main, 11th April 1785 a production, clearly approved by the Emperor, of this work performed by Grossmann and the group from Bonn, in German.

What has Mozart scholarship to hide by discussing this subject ? It simply never features in articles or websites in which the opera is discussed. Yet the significance of this Frankfurt production is clear and obvious.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Yes Peter,on 31st January 1785 the Emperor Joseph 2nd wrote to Count Pergen (later head of the state Secret Police) saying -

'I have learned that the attached Figaro has been proposed in German translation for the theatre....Now, since this piece contains multiple indecencies I maintain that a critic has to reject it all or you yourselves should make alterations on which your responsibility is assumed for making them, taking in to account the effects of doing so'.

Schickaneder's group had planned to stage such a work on 3rd February 1785 at the Kartnertortheater.

And yet, we see a few months later at Frankfurt am Main, 11th April 1785 a production, clearly approved by the Emperor, of this work performed by Grossmann and the group from Bonn, in German.

What has Mozart scholarship to hide by discussing this subject ? It simply never features in articles or websites in which the opera is discussed. Yet the significance of this Frankfurt production is clear and obvious.

The significance is not clear - you haven't even told us yet what was performed at Frankfurt, an opera, a play, what? Were there singers, was there music? Mozart scholarship has probably not discussed it precisely because it is of no significance.

All you have told us is that the Grossman company performed figaro at Frankfurt in 1785 - they were a highly respected theatre group and had given the first performance of plays by Schiller. How does this cast any doubt on Mozart's writing the music?

Incidentally you're not using this as a diversion to avoid answering the questions I posed on the Archive thread are you? Seems like a conspiracy to me!!!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-13-2006).]

[robert newman]

'Mozart scholarship has not discussed it because it has no significance' ???!!!

Quite apart from this being the first ever production in German speaking lands of Beaumarchais banned play, of course ! On such grounds alone the relevance is indisputable.

Second, that it was performed by the Grossmann theatre group - a group from Bonn whose head of music was the Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi.

Third, that we have evidence that the opera 'The Magic Flute' was sent to Bonn prior to its first performance in 1791 (Simrock).

Fourthly, that the Schickaneder who wanted to stage the play of Figaro in 1785 is of course the same Schickaneder who staged The Magic Flute in 1791.

Since (as you say yourself) we do not know if this 'singspiel' contained music and by whom, it is and has been for over 100 years of clear and obvious significance for those who would write or learn about the history of that subject - 'Le Nozze di Figaro'.

Step by step the truth of this situation will be revealed. I am certain of it.

I am equally certain that Mozart (whose last stage work prior to 'Figaro' was a German singspiel 'The Impressario' - this as a rival piece to the one written that day in Italian by Salieri - did not write 'Le Nozze di Figaro' staged first with an Italian libretto in May of 1786. But, you see clearly, who is allowing daylight to shine on these matters and who is not.

Regards

[Joy]

Funny how throughout the ages there have always been censourship of some form in music. Back in Mozart's time and clear up to Elvis 'the pelvis' Presley and The Beatles and up until now as well.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[robert newman]

I am certainly not refusing to answer any questions. This thread shows it clearly. I am doing the opposite. But this thread requires 3 posts to first outline the material and that part of it which today is attributed to Haydn and Mozart at Modena. If, in the meantime, you wish to add to your specific questions, please do so. But in the interests of order (and sanity) I will finish the 3 part submission before tackling these questions to the best of my ability. That seems reasonable, does it not ? (I have in the meantime given you some help and have not conspired with anyone. On the contrary, this material is being posted online for the very first time and will hopefully be open for criticism and question. A strange 'conspiracy' to be part of, is it not ?). You must be confusing me with those who rubbish the attempt but who never discuss this material or allow discussion of its implications. It's their conspiracy, of silence, that is so obvious. And they may be wise to remain so.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

In fact the article lists his notable musical works to date as being -

'Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail' ist 1785 gedruckt. Auch sind seit 1784 verschiedene Sinfonien, Quartette und Sonatensammlungen nebst Concerten furs Clavier offentlich bekannt geworden'
(JN Forkel)

Furthermore, after Mozart's death, in the Necrology made by Friedrich von Schlichtegroll for the date of '5th December' is an entry Johannes Chrystomus Wolfgang Gottlieb Mozart (first published 1793) and a brief list of Mozart's musical achievements including the operas Idomeneo and The Magic Flute. But Mozart is not credited there also with the opera Le Nozze di Figaro.

Dear Robert;

First, you noticed that "Figaro" was not mentioned in an article of Mozart's achievements. You immediately grasp at this as proof that Mozart might not have authored "Figaro."

But on the other hand, you failed to notice that Schlictegroll mentions "Idomeneo" amongst Mozart's achievements. But you do not grasp at that as proof that Mozart authored "Idomeneo."

I am sorry, Robert. You can not have it both ways when it serves you.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

'Mozart scholarship has not discussed it because it has no significance' ???!!!

Quite apart from this being the first ever production in German speaking lands of Beaumarchais banned play, of course ! On such grounds alone the relevance is indisputable.

Second, that it was performed by the Grossmann theatre group - a group from Bonn whose head of music was the Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi.

Third, that we have evidence that the opera 'The Magic Flute' was sent to Bonn prior to its first performance in 1791 (Simrock).

Fourthly, that the Schickaneder who wanted to stage the play of Figaro in 1785 is of course the same Schickaneder who staged The Magic Flute in 1791.

Since (as you say yourself) we do not know if this 'singspiel' contained music and by whom, it is and has been for over 100 years of clear and obvious significance for those who would write or learn about the history of that subject - 'Le Nozze di Figaro'.

Step by step the truth of this situation will be revealed. I am certain of it.

I am equally certain that Mozart (whose last stage work prior to 'Figaro' was a German singspiel 'The Impressario' - this as a rival piece to the one written that day in Italian by Salieri - did not write 'Le Nozze di Figaro' staged first with an Italian libretto in May of 1786. But, you see clearly, who is allowing daylight to shine on these matters and who is not.

Regards

Robert how does all this show that Kraus wrote the Marriage of Figaro not Mozart? Please don't bother to answer because we've been through it all before and I do not want this forum swamped by your theories and by indulging you yet again on this subject I would have hoped you would be a little more helpful when someone actually dares to question what you are saying.

You and Taboga can believe what you like, but I think you are completely wrong and I have no doubts myself (and I think the vast majority of people here would agree) that Mozart was the true composer of Figaro.
I really wish you would stick with the Bonn archives where we can at least try to make some clarity out of a complicated situation and one that isn't as conclusive as you've made out in the past.



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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

What you or I think about Mozart was not really the point of my post. The point was to show what Mozart's own contemporaries thought. That is what THEY thought.

Yes, Mozart was credited by Schichtegroll with writing Idomeneo. Great. Not Figaro. It's just too bad there is no record of him being paid for Idomeneo and nobody here has provided any despite months of open invitation and denial. It's too bad that Mozart was accused by a fellow composer at Munich of stealing music from Handel for its creation. And (but not least)it's too bad that JM Kraus is today said to have 'acquired' its March for his own public use in Sweden.

In a public enquiry we hear all kinds of evidence. That is the nature of a public enquiry. But the case for Mozart not having written Figaro does not rest on one contempory opinion or even two. These particular two sources are major sources of the time and are interesting but, we agree, are not decisive.

Let it not be said we were ignorant of what people said about Figaro and what they believed at the time.

Regards

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Let it not be said we were ignorant of what people said about Figaro and what they believed at the time.

Regards

Obviously you are if you haven't read the reviews of the Prague performances or the review in the Wiener Realzeitung of 11 July 1786.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Absolutely. Let's have it posted here. It's all part of a fair and open (public) enquiry - which is such a revolutionary idea on this most controversial work that anybody interested in truth would welcome it. The general public believed as they did. Great. They did the same of Mozart's supposed Requiem. Great too.

[robert newman]

According to JW Wolter -

'The summer season of the Grossmann company began in 1785 on 29th March at Frankfurt and lasted there till 12th May. The most important theatrical event at this time was performance of Beaumarchais's 'Figaro'....Immediately after first performance on 11th April at Frankfurt the theatre of the Principality of Magonza had received a permit to stage the same.

To perform this satirical comedy Grossmann decided to turn it over to the Prince, entrusting the censorship of Figaro to the advisor von Mors while he carried out some variations to the work...It was in this same version that 'Figaro' was presented to the public of Magonza for the first time on 23rd February 1786.

(J Wolter 'GFW Grossmann' (Cologne - 1901, p.57)

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Yes, Mozart was credited by Schichtegroll with writing Idomeneo. Great. Not Figaro. It's just too bad there is no record of him being paid for Idomeneo and nobody here has provided any despite months of open invitation and denial. It's too bad that Mozart was accused by a fellow composer at Munich of stealing music from Handel for its creation.

Hi Robert,

...Also Schubert was accused by Salieri of stealing music from Haydn...today, I hardly think that any of us would accuse him of this.

So your point about Handel...what does it show? It shows that Mozart's contemporaries wanted to accuse him of plagiarism probably because of jealousy etc. etc...maybe it should not be actually taken as evidence that plagiarism on Mozart's part actually occurred.

I am just trying to poke holes in your theories as you seem to want to poke holes in everyone else's.

Also, I just wanted to point out that in a number of instances, you are being evasive with questions even though you say you are answering everything that is asked of you. In a number of spots, Peter has asked you a direct question to which you have failed to reply. Just an observation...

[HaydnFan]

Robert, I do, however, want to commend you for sticking to your opinions, however wild and bold they may be...

...I know that I, personally, would have backed down and accepted the beliefs of others a long time ago but you attack these arguments continually with fresh "evidence" and a sense of vigour...

I respect that, even though I do not agree with you, haha.