The riddle of the Immortal beloved Book

[Fidelio]

Does anyone have a copy or know where I might obtain a photocopy of OG Sonneck Book from 1927 "The riddle of the Immortal beloved"?

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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[robert newman]

Dear Fidelio,

Oscar George Sonneck (1873-1928) was for several years editor of the 'Musical Quarterly' published by G. Schrimer in New York. He was also for several years (around 1915 onwards) Chief of Music Division at the Library of Congress in Washington DC.

I have not been able to find the book you refer to despite extensive searches. Perhaps it was -

a) A journal article he wrote
b) A journal article that he edited

You give the date of 1927 as publication date for this book. That was (as we see) the year before Sonneck's death. It is sure that he wrote extensively on Beethoven - I have seen perhaps as many as 30 articles listed by him but none on the subject you mention. Again, it may be that it was part of a larger publication to which he contributed or of which he served as editor.

In any event, you may find some help from the records of the New York Public Library or the Library of Congress. The publication is also not listed in the archives of the British Library here in London.

Regards

[Peter]

It is available on abebooks.co.uk but as a first edition and at an horrendous price!

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'Man know thyself'

[Fidelio]

I have seen the price on Abe books......

Many thanks to all.




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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Fidelio]

In 1909 and 1910, two books by Thomas-San-Galli and one by Max Unger finally brought back some scientific rationale into the whole affair. They ruled out every single year in which the letter could have been written between 1795 and 1818 except for 1812 - and 1812 was a year in which July 6th fell on a monday!

Has there been any english translation on their work?



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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[JohnSpecialK]

Beethoven's "Immortal Beloved"

All you want to know can be found in "Beethoven's Only Beloved: Josephine!", See more in
http://www.createspace.com/3740694
https://www.createspace.com/Preview/1097804
https://www.academia.edu/8341328/New...nie_Hypothesis
https://www.academia.edu/4099281/Tri...d_Tribulations
https://www.academia.edu/6646618/The_Wisdom_of_Solomon
https://www.academia.edu/6573915/Tel..._English_Intro
https://www.academia.edu/5496313/All...n_Translation_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JohnSpecialK
https://www.amazon.com/author/johnklapproth

[Decrepit Poster]

All you want to know can be found in "Beethoven's Only Beloved: Josephine!", See more in
http://www.createspace.com/3740694
https://www.createspace.com/Preview/1097804
https://www.academia.edu/8341328/New...nie_Hypothesis
https://www.academia.edu/4099281/Tri...d_Tribulations
https://www.academia.edu/6646618/The_Wisdom_of_Solomon
https://www.academia.edu/6573915/Tel..._English_Intro
https://www.academia.edu/5496313/All...n_Translation_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JohnSpecialK
https://www.amazon.com/author/johnklapproth

Lots of good info here. I might add this book to my meager Beethoven collection.

[AeolianHarp]

I have it DP- very good book. Very interesting that Baron Stackelberg's descendent said that the Baron pretended that Minona was his own daughter.

– In a journal of the "Baltic Knighthoods", Wolfhart von Stackelberg (2001), a direct descendent of one of Christoph's brothers, remarked:

Another daughter, who could not have been descended from Baron Stackelberg, was born in April 1813... Christoph von Stackelberg pretended, in spite of the facts, that this child was his.

This is in the trials and tribulations document linked above.
The research is meticulous, done by German speakers who had access to the Brunsvik documents that English speakers are often unaware of, and according to the author there are more still not translated into English.
Minona could only have been Beethoven's daughter.

[Decrepit Poster]

I ordered the book through Amazon, received it 22 Aug, and have now read it cover to cover except for a page or so of the extensive books (Literature) listing at very end. Quite informative and fascinating, containing much I had not previously been exposed to. I enjoyed it, the more so for having been a supporter of Josephine as prime contender for the Immortal Beloved for some time.

I must have stared at that photocopy of the two letter variants (page 201 of my 2nd edition copy) a good hour straight. I agree that the the rightmost image is apt to the more correct of the two. And yes, that image appears to be of a "T" along with something else rather than an "A". I can't get an "S" out of the other letter. But then, I can't get any other letter either. To demonstrate how perverse my mind works, when I look at the rightmost image I tend to see not letters but rather a hatted figure slumped against something unseen with its legs resting on the floor, feet protruding upward. Resting against the the figure's shoulder, its butt against the floor, is a rifle/musket. The figure represents a/the guardian against the union of the two parties concerned. Hey, I did say I have a perverse mind . . . LOL.

Also, in the brief "Movies" section I was surprised to see no mention of "The Genius of Beethoven". True it's not a movie proper, but then neither are a few other entries.

[AeolianHarp]

I ordered the book through Amazon, received it 22 Aug, and have now read it cover to cover except for a page or so of the extensive books (Literature) listing at very end. Quite informative and fascinating, containing much I had not previously been exposed to. I enjoyed it, the more so for having been a supporter of Josephine as prime contender for the Immortal Beloved for some time.

I am glad you got a copy DP.

I must have stared at that photocopy of the two letter variants (page 201 of my 2nd edition copy) a good hour straight. I agree that the the rightmost image is apt to the more correct of the two. And yes, that image appears to be of a "T" along with something else rather than an "A". I can't get an "S" out of the other letter. But then, I can't get any other letter either.

I certainly see an S there-it is sloping and merged into the T- but it is almost a cipher too- perhaps made not so clear by Beethoven so as if anyone saw it they couldn't easily work it out.

He most certainly is referring to Stackelerg there- the Brunsvik sisters themselves stated that he was the "ruin" of Josephine herself- the language and meaning are the same.

To demonstrate how perverse my mind works, when I look at the rightmost image I tend to see not letters but rather a hatted figure slumped against something unseen with its legs resting on the floor, feet protruding upward. Resting against the the figure's shoulder, its butt against the floor, is a rifle/musket. The figure represents a/the guardian against the union of the two parties concerned. Hey, I did say I have a perverse mind . . . LOL.

You must have been thinking about Karl..

Also, in the brief "Movies" section I was surprised to see no mention of "The Genius of Beethoven". True it's not a movie proper, but then neither are a few other entries.

Maybe the author hadn't seen it? I rather suspect not as Josephine features in it- there is a conversation between her and Ludwig at the piano, when he is wanting to find out if she loves him and will consider marrying him.


He does mention Beethoven Lives Upstairs and calls it a "comedy or children's story"- whilst it is true it was made for children, it isn't a comedy, though there are humourous moments in it. It is also the most authentic of all the films about Beethoven- Neil Monro played the most true likeness to him.

Of course it is set in his later life when Josephine had passed on, so I expect that is why the author hasn't gone into much detail about the film.