A few words on Chopin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Marek Krukowski:
Some people say Chopin was antisemite. Well, some people say Luchesi wrote the symphonies of Haydn and Mozart. Do you know any example of Chopin's antisemitic behaviour or statement?

Marek

There are not a lot of people claiming Luchesi wrote those symphonies. But references to Chopin's antisemitism are fairly common both on the web and in print. I'll pick up a biography of Chopin at the library and see if I can be more definitive on the subject.

[Nightklavier]

Check out Tad Szulc's biography "Chopin in Paris." You'll find primary sources (ie letters) where Chopin is clearly antisemitic. I distinctly remember anecdotes where Chopin has quarrels with publishers and in addition to faulting their mistakes, Chopin makes deragatory remarks that their incompetence comes from being jewish.

There was also an interesting film, or I should say two short films wrapped into one: "Strange Case of Delphina Potocka/Mystery of Chopin" which dealt with two stories of the unearthed pornographic and antisemitic letters of Chopin. I saw it a while ago, so I can't remember if it was that accurate, but the letters definitely speak for themselves.

[paulverv]

Originally posted by RE Newman:

I too love Chopin. The recordings made by the great Rumanian pianist Dinu Lipatti (of the Waltzes and of the 3rd Sonata) are in my view the greatest ever made.

Don't know if people agree but I've always rated Chopin's 1st Concerto far more highly than his 2nd.

Chopin wrote the 2nd concerto first.
For performance,Horowitz is the Man.

pv

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
There are not a lot of people claiming Luchesi wrote those symphonies. But references to Chopin's antisemitism are fairly common both on the web and in print. I'll pick up a biography of Chopin at the library and see if I can be more definitive on the subject.

I've now just read two biographies of Chopin which I got from the library, and there was no mention of antisemitism in either of them.
He was however portrayed as reserved, aristocratic (in nature, not in birth), conservative and somewhat intolerant of situations and people in general, which would seem to me to at least lay the groundwork for such an attitude. But of course this is a long way from confirming it.

If the research object was unrealized, still the books were fascinating portraits of the man and his times. A few highlights follow. Rod and others of his ilk will of course consider this about nothing and are free to leave now, please shut the door behind you, there's a nice boy.

Chopin tried but was temperamentally unsuited for larger forms and concentrated on his piano pieces. With the major exceptions of the two piano concertos which he milked throughout his career, playing them in solo versions at many, many soirees. He preferred the relative intimacy of soirees to public concerts, and concetrated on them when he performed at all. He was in great demand as a teacher of aristocratic ladies, and made the bulk of his comfortable living that way. Also his published works were very popular and provided a steady income, so performing in any sense was not a necessity for him and he disliked it. When he did play at soirees, in the small hours after midnight when many guests had gone and only a small circle were left, he could be prevailed upon to improvise and this was the high point. It impressed on me again how all the great composers were at their greatest when improvising, according to many accounts, and that whether classical music eventually survives in public concerts in our culture or not, this aspect is sadly pretty completely lost the and will never be heard again; and that improvising as an art today is more or less reserved to jazz, pop and other musics such as Indian raga.

Chopin's affair with George Sand was more than an affair, it lasted for eight years, they were really in love, and it was a marriage in all but name. It fell apart gradually as many marriages do and then finally exploded tragically over some problems with her children and their husbands which involved actual violence. This is fascinating to read about and would make a good play.

I didn't know that Chopin's friendship with the painter Delacroix (source of the famous portrait by the artist of the composer) was so close. They were really buddies and spent endless hours together. I just looked thru a book of Delacroix which I own and still cannot fathom what is so great about this artist, except for isolated works like the Chopin portrait. He just goes almost completely by me the way Bach goes by Rod. Some things remain mysterious forever.

The mid-nineteenth century milieu is also great to read about. Berlioz, Liszt, Meyerbeer, Mendelssohn, Schumann are some of Chopin's friends and the whirl and glitter of the period are tangible. Beethoven was the idol of all the composers except Chopin who preferred Bach and Mozart. This is not to say he didn't love Bn., just not as much as Bh. and M. He was rapturous over a performance of the Ninth. There is no doubt that in all these composers' minds, Beethoven was the fountainhead of Romantic music, though Peter has it otherwise. Chopin was not fond of midcentury Romantic music with its excesses in general, although of course he is a Romantic. Lizst as a person and his music both were too much for him, though he maintained a cordial surface friendship.

Reductions of symphonies and concertos for one or two pianos were very common. One public concert featured an original work (by a today more or less forgotten composer) for six famous pianists. The piano and skilled amateur pianists, usually girls and women, were everywhere; the combination in every middle class home filled the function of today's TV and stereo, bringing entertainment and music to the masses who could not attend frequent concerts. I would venture to say that in that male-dominated society a great number of women, confined to house and children, were able to add some significant needed extra meaning to their lives by learning and playing great music at home.

The two books are listed below. The first one is full of pictures and photos which are themselves a real treat. There is a photo of Liszt as a young man which gives a very good idea of the fascination he had for women, as he is very good looking. There is also one of a young and very beautiful Clara Schumann which shows how easy it would have been to fall in love with her as Schumaznn and Brahms did, and doubltless many other admirers. There are several photos of Chopin, particularly a late one, which give a good idea of his face that is obviously more accurate than the Delacroix portrait which is somewhat idealized though expressive. There are other drawings of him also, some by Sands' children. In those days many could draw and paint as well as play the piano.

The first book is 'Chopin, His Life and Times,' by Ates Orga. The second is 'Chopin, a New Biography,' by Adam Zamoyski.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-03-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I've now just read two biographies of Chopin which I got from the library, and there was no mention of antisemitism in either of them.

You'd probably also enjoy Chopin's letters translated by E.L.Voynich (Dover publications) - It's a while since I read them and without laboriously searching through I think there are a few antisemetic comments there. Though I certainly don't condone it, it should be put in the context of the times and not looked at with the hindsight of Nazi Germany.

I'm away on holiday for a few days (I believe Chris is also away) so members may have to put up with spam on the forum, but I will try to keep an eye on things when time allows.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-03-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

A few highlights follow. Rod and others of his ilk will of course consider this about nothing and are free to leave now, please shut the door behind you, there's a nice boy.

...and at this moment I regret providing you with the first movement of the 2nd Symphony transcription, which you requested and which you have not even bothered to provide an acknowledgement. But I will leave it for others to enjoy. Even if you didn't have the foresight to check the chain it sums up all my preconceptions and indeed experience of JS Bach and late Romantic geeks, none of it good. But ignorance and a complete lack of grace are synonymous features of a great number classical music fans.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-03-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
...and at this moment I regret providing you with the first movement of the 2nd Symphony transcription, which you requested and which you have not even bothered to provide an acknowledgement. But I will leave it for others to enjoy. Even if you didn't have the foresight to check the chain it sums up all my preconceptions and indeed experience of JS Bach and late Romantic geeks, none of it good. But ignorance and a complete lack of grace are synonymous features of a great number classical music fans.

Oh my, so sensitive. I was only saying that tongue in cheek, jokingly. Don't take yourself so seriously. Of course I'll listen and give a comment, tomorrow, as I must go out now. I've wanted to post that piece of writing on the two Chopin books for several days, and just got around to it today.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-03-2006).]

[Hershey]

Regarding Chopin:

Amusingly, Delacroix relates in his diary (a MUST READ for anyone interested in the period - discussion of art, esthetics, theatre, music, etc...) Delacroix recounts and evening with Chopin and a detailed discussion about Chopin's response to Beethoven's music, esthetic and talent. In general Chopin was not fond of Beethoven AT ALL, and the description is amusing, though are recountings of his playing of op. 26 among other things... both positive and not so...

In terms of the materials you have read, they are delightful pieces, but if you want the "real thing" - the best material to read is Jean Jacques Eigeldinger's "Chopin Vue Par ses Eleves" in the English translation, "Chopin, Teacher, as Seen by his Pupils." Of all the accounts, this is the most comprehensive, the very best collection, and as true as these items can get.

In terms of the relationship with George Sand, it is far more complicated than mentioned above, replete with strange and confused backstabbing, and unusual behavior - Andre Maurois' "lelia" with its collected quotes gives you an idea - and then back to Delacroix diary which speaks of an amazing specific event with the three of them (sand, Delacroix, Chopin), and then the final pages of Sand's Histoire de Ma Vie, which gives an even more fascinating perspective.

In playing Chopin's own piano, as I have, one immediately understands that his works were not composed for the Beasts that we use today, and they are far more playable and beautiful on his original Pleyel which sits in the Chopin society in Warsaw (the last of his instruments, at any rate.)

As for anti-semitism - there are a number of schools of thought, I subscribe to a combination of them. His letters - published - often enough reveal contempt for Jews, which to him are as good as Russians, Dogs, liars, cheats, though he defends a few of his associates, and in at least one known case is vulgar about a description. In fact, when one studies his letters as opposed to subscribing to the post-romantic re-invention of Chopin, one discovers a naught fellow full of nasty tricks, dirty language, amusement, intolerance, insolance, genius - all of these associations.

My view, is that Chopin was very much a product of his time - his religious beliefs (another entire discussion) and so, indeed it was fashionable in both Poland and Paris, and among the elite to have little to no respect to contempt for Jews, as Chopin expressed often enough. Considering his relationship with Rothschild - and now and again Shlesinger, of course he had Jewish associations, and there is even thought that his mother was of Jewish extraction.

Either way - popular thinking can influence rhetoric, and with regard to Chopin and his anti-semitism, that's what I believe.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Oh my, so sensitive. I was only saying that tongue in cheek, jokingly. Don't take yourself so seriously. Of course I'll listen and give a comment, tomorrow, as I must go out now. I've wanted to post that piece of writing on the two Chopin books for several days, and just got around to it today.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-03-2006).]

I wasn't being sensitive, on occasion I like to bring to the surface thoughts that are always lingering at the back of my mind, just 'for the record' so to speak. You brought forth such an occasion. You know these thoughts I have Chaszz, dark thoughts. All the same you better compose a considered response re the trio lest my preconceptions be proved correct, yet again. I expect a marked improvement in your casual attitude, as my teacher used to say.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-03-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I wasn't being sensitive, on occasion I like to bring to the surface thoughts that are always lingering at the back of my mind, just 'for the record' so to speak. You brought forth such an occasion. You know these thoughts I have Chaszz, dark thoughts. All the same you better compose a considered response re the trio lest my preconceptions be proved correct, yet again. I expect a marked improvement in your casual attitude, as my teacher used to say.

This is a little frightening, you sound a bit like a character out of Ruth Rendall or some other writer of scary stories. I'll write a response to the trio not because you are demanding it almost in a threat (but perhaps this is a joke on YOUR part), but because it's only right to do so since I asked for the first movement originally. It's too bad that your posting of it crossed over with my previously planned Chopin post and the delay produced these dark thoughts in you.

As to your dark thoughts about CM listeners, I am not the most graceful person but plead innocent of ignorance. I've listened to and aprreciated deeply many many works which you...well, let that pass... and additionally also have deeply appreciated Beethoven and Handel. Never forget what B. himself said of Bach, that he should be called ocean and not brook, which comment throws into question your own highly-self-regarded skills in identifying great music outside of your chosen two composers.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
This is a little frightening, you sound a bit like a character out of Ruth Rendall or some other writer of scary stories. I'll write a response to the trio not because you are demanding it almost in a threat (but perhaps this is a joke on YOUR part), but because it's only right to do so since I asked for the first movement originally. It's too bad that your posting of it crossed over with my previously planned Chopin post and the delay produced these dark thoughts in you.

As to your dark thoughts about CM listeners, I am not the most graceful person but plead innocent of ignorance. I've listened to and aprreciated deeply many many works which you...well, let that pass... and additionally also have deeply appreciated Beethoven and Handel. Never forget what B. himself said of Bach, that he should be called ocean and not brook, which comment throws into question your own highly-self-regarded skills in identifying great music outside of your chosen two composers.

Sometimes I'm a bit scary, I scare myself, sometimes I'm a bundle of laughs. Appropriate behaviour for a Beethoven specialist I suppose.

I am fully aware of Beethoven's appreciation of other composers, and have answered this point on many occasions in the past. My grievance is not with Bach or Wagner, though they are both overated today, just the fans and the scholars.

Did I not say here a while back 'Bach did his work in good faith and presumably got paid for it.' I'm sure there's some underlying cynicism in there, but I was feeling benevolent when I first wrote it!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-04-2006).]

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Rod:
Appropriate behaviour for a Beethoven specialist I suppose.

But Rod, aren't you also a Handel specialist and an AC/DC specialist?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Sometimes I'm a bit scary, I scare myself, sometimes I'm a bundle of laughs. Appropriate behaviour for a Beethoven specialist I suppose.

I am fully aware of Beethoven's appreciation of other composers, and have answered this point on many occasions in the past. My grievance is not with Bach or Wagner, though they are both overated today, just the fans and the scholars.

Did I not say here a while back 'Bach did his work in good faith and presumably got paid for it.' I'm sure there's some underlying cynicism in there, but I was feeling benevolent when I first wrote it!

That is damning with the faintest of praise, as the saying goes.

I just looked for your Handel Froum and couldn't find it. Can you please recommend a good version of the Ode for St. Cecilia's Day?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
But Rod, aren't you also a Handel specialist and an AC/DC specialist?

True but while I am here I am primarily concerned with Beethoven, although one could say Handel and AC/DC had/have the same kind of temperaments.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

That is damning with the faintest of praise, as the saying goes.

I just looked for your Handel Froum and couldn't find it. Can you please recommend a good version of the Ode for St. Cecilia's Day?

You couldn't find it because it is no longer there! I closed it down through lack of membership interest.

Concerning the Ode, I can recommend the Trevor Pinnock/English Concert recording on Archiv label.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin