A few words on Chopin

[Chaszz]

This composer's works are sometimes considered effete, minor, overly rarefied, delicate. They are not; they are really full, muscular and beautifuly developed. Every theme is explored from several angles and its implications fully worked out melodically, harmonically and rythmically, like a movement from the Well Tempered Clavier. They are small and minor only at first glance, the way a small painting by Van Eyck or Holbein contains large scales of space and volume.

Chopin was a vicious antisemite but then so many were.

Lizst and Chopin were once present together at an evening party. Lizst thought to honor Chopin by going to the piano and playing one of the latter's pieces. He added a few embellishments as was his habit. Afterward, Chopin remarked that he would rather not hear his works played unless they were played as written. He then demonstrated by playing the piece himself. Lizst agreed that it could not be bettered, and apologized for the liberties he had taken.

For those who may be unfamiliar with it, a fine portrait of Chopin by Delacroix:
http://www.abcgallery.com/D/delacroix/delacroix14.html

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 03-26-2006).]

[Chris]

I agree, definately! And I also agree with Chopin about embellishments. I certainly wouldn't want my works played with embellishment after I'd taken the trouble to get them just the way I wanted them. Well, if I composed works as great as Chopin's, that is. I imagine anything Lizst did to one of my pieces would be a distinct improvement.

[Sorrano]

Who would you recommend as a good Chopin interpreter? I have a disc of Barenboim playing the Nocturnes and with what I saw in the scores (G. Schirmer) I felt that the works were not well represented and I could not listen to the entire disc as I was disappointed.

I find it difficult to listen to Chopin. But to play his music is a completely different experience. If it were not for the odd rhythmic passages I would certainly play more of his music, as I find it very delightful.

[Chris]

Vladimir Ashkenazy is my favorite for Chopin. Rubinstein and Arrau are some other popular choices.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 03-26-2006).]

[RE Newman]

I too love Chopin. The recordings made by the great Rumanian pianist Dinu Lipatti (of the Waltzes and of the 3rd Sonata) are in my view the greatest ever made.

Don't know if people agree but I've always rated Chopin's 1st Concerto far more highly than his 2nd.

[atserriotserri]

I din't know the situation you describe between Chopin and Liszt, chaszz, but shows how methodic Chopin was and that the long hours he invested composing even the shortest piece because he was a perfectionist.

You mention the Well Tempered Ckavier as a piece with which to compare his works, and precisely that was the only score Chopin took with him to Valldemosa (Mallorca, Spain). In fact, Chopin is quoted to have said "Bach is like an astronomer who, with the help of ciphers, finds the most wonderful stars....Beethoven embraced the universe with the power of his spirit...I do not climb so high. A long time ago I decided that my universe will be the soul and heart of man". That shows his good taste and also his humility.

Concerning to Chopin performers, I just consider Rubinstein above the others overall (my personal taste). He recorded in different periods of his life the complete mazurkas, polonaises, waltzes, sonatas, concertos and other pieces, so you can follow his evolution when facing the scores (and as age made him more aware of his fame as Chopin performer). He said he never listened to his recordings after he gave the approval to its launching because some 6 months after having recorded a piece, when he listened to the record he discovered something that he had skipped or that he would play different... Keep also in mind that he criticised some of his contemporary and past pianists precisely for having "sweetened" (hope you undestand what I mean), romanticised the scores far from the original. Therefore you will find vigour in him.

I appreciate also Ashkenazy and Arrau a lot, also good choices. Lipatti was for me an amazing discovery, I own a recording of the waltzes and is fantastic (personally, in a second position between Rubinstein and Arrau). I place Pollini under all of them despite the fact Rubinstein himself praised him as a young brilliant Chopin player.

If you like Chopin waltzes and want something completely different (eccentric in fact, that's why it should not be a first option) and also deeply moving, try to find a recording from Geza Anda (I've got the Philips "Great Pianists of the Century"; it comes with Bartok piano concertos, great sound by the way). It's his last recording, just months before he died (long cancer took him away from us) and he played them in an amazing contemplative way, at a constant rythm and in a most detailed way. It's such a beautiful performance that you accept the sadness that perhaps you may perceive it emanates from him.

If you like historic recordings, Rachmaninoff's Funeral March is by far the most muscular I've listened to. You'll never forget it.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Who would you recommend as a good Chopin interpreter? I have a disc of Barenboim playing the Nocturnes and with what I saw in the scores (G. Schirmer) I felt that the works were not well represented and I could not listen to the entire disc as I was disappointed.

I find it difficult to listen to Chopin. But to play his music is a completely different experience. If it were not for the odd rhythmic passages I would certainly play more of his music, as I find it very delightful.

I have a CD of Chopin's Etudes performed by Murray Perahia. Very excellent in my opinion. He has a very powerful technique and shows a sensitivity to form with some drama thrown in. It was voted 'CD of the week' on my classical radio station when it first came out.


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

I like Rubenstein also. And lately I've been listening to a disc by Abbey Simon, vol 2 of his Chopin recordings, which contains Ballades, Impromptus and a few miscellaneous works, and have been enjoying it very much.

[robert newman]

Not of direct relevance to this thread, but having touched on great pianists I'd like to note here one of the great musical experiences of my life that occurred some 25 years ago while I was living in Hong Kong.

I was listening to a radio broadcast of the BBC world service and the programme was entitled 'A Portrait of Genius'. With it already being late I paid no special attention, until the narrator began to speak of Dinu Lipatti, saying that we were about to hear his astounding version of the Grieg concerto (a piece we've all heard a thousand times and one I thought could hardly raise any eyebrows). The recording was that made by Lipatti shortly after he had been diagnosed with leukemia (around the time when EMI finally managed to 'discover' Lipatti's phenomenal talent).

Nothing prepared me for the avalanche of sound that Lipatti creates in that cadenza or for the astounding precision and tenderness with which he played it.

This followed by his equally amazing rendering of the slow movement from Mozart's A Minor Sonata. And then Ravel's Alborado del Grazioso. The work ended with the recording made live at his last concert, the Hesse version of 'Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring', and this after a quite miraculous excerpt from one of the Chopin waltzes.

It is difficult to put in to words how the sound of a pianist recorded in less than perfect mono on vinyl from the early 1950's can have transcended that medium as Lipatti does. (His recording of Bach's First Partita - in B Flat - is one of my great treasures).

I don't know why but there is a warmth and a depth to mono analogue recordings (even of keyboard recordings) which I hugely prefer over the latest, most surgical, digital.

How curious that old but great recordings have this ability (sometimes) despite all their imperfections.

[atserriotserri]

Robert, I totally agree with you. I have not a record player but the remasterings of this old records offer the opportunity to enjoy recordings that, as you said, surprise you when in my humble opinion, surprises are not that common in nowadays recordings.
Concerning Lipatti I bought a 2cd set from Emi containing Chopin's waltzes, barcarolle op 60, 1 nocture, 1 mazurka, the 3rd piano sonata and the 1st piano concerto, don't remember why (I remember thinking that my girlfriend would tell me "you already have Chopin waltzes, don't you? Why another?"). The sound on the solo piano works is surprising, but even more is his playing. Same happened with the first Rubinstein records, surprised me how a mature player (as you surely know, Rubinstein refused to record until he was 40 bacause he said that piano sound like a banjo, and he had to listen one test he did to be convinced that the tecnology had evolved) could play chopin so forwardly.
And the most clear example for me up to now, the mentioned Rachmaninoff recording of the 2nd piano sonata.

[atserriotserri]

Robert,
I was looking for some records to buy as present for my brother's birthday and found the record "Dinu Lipatti: Chopin Waltzes, Bach, Mozart, Schubert Besancon festival 1950". It is the remaster of the last concert offered by Lipatti, 2 monts before his death.
The repertoire was no less than:
Bach's Partita for keyboard No. 1 in B flat major, BWV 825
Mozart's Piano Sonata No. 8 in A minor, K. 310 (K. 300d)
Schubert's Impromptus for piano D. 899/3 (Op. 90/3) & D. 899/2 (Op. 90/2)
Chopin's 13 Waltzes (all but 2nd).
I have no words, I just can say "Have no doubt: if you see it, purchase it"

Sorrano, I agree with you with respect Barenboim, any of the pianists mentioned in this topic are far better choices.

Chaszz, you mention Chopin's antisemitism, and I don't want to make a point out of it (as you didn't do), but I just think is good bringing to the discussion the fact that Rubinstein, whose name is atached to Chopin was jewish and involved in the cause, as well as Barenboim. I think those are good examples of untying music from personal composer's opinions.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by atserriotserri:

...Chaszz, you mention Chopin's antisemitism, and I don't want to make a point out of it (as you didn't do), but I just think is good bringing to the discussion the fact that Rubinstein, whose name is atached to Chopin was jewish and involved in the cause, as well as Barenboim. I think those are good examples of untying music from personal composer's opinions.

Barenboim has of course also been very visibly involved in the dramatic struggle over whether or not Wagner should be played in Israel.

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Chopin was a vicious antisemite

???????????
Never heard about it.
Have you any support?

By the way, there is a little piece of Jewish music in episode of C major Rondo op.73 written about 1827 and reworked for two pianos in 1828.

Marek

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Marek Krukowski:
???????????
Never heard about it. [Chopin's antisemitism]
Have you any support?

By the way, there is a little piece of Jewish music in episode of C major Rondo op.73 written about 1827 and reworked for two pianos in 1828.

Marek

For a start, do a find on 'Chopin' in the following articles:


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Wagner.html


http://www.meyerbeer.com/disc99/_disc10/0000070c.htm

http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=1584


(That Chopin nestles like a small bird under the larger wing of Wagner, in the first two articles, is merely tribute to Wagner's outsized bloated achievement as an antisemite.)



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 08-20-2006).]

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Wagner.html

Some people say Chopin was antisemite. Well, some people say Luchesi wrote the symphonies of Haydn and Mozart. Do you know any example of Chopin's antisemitic behaviour or statement?

Marek