A Really Touchy Question

[Athea]

Originally posted by paulverv:

Originally posted by Hershey:
If you have anything speculative or otherwise to share on the matter, please do share.

I have read somewhere that Beethoven referred to the act of sex as a "beastial union". Could be something lost in translation.
pv[/B]

He wrote: "Sensual enjoyment without a union of souls is bestial and will always remain bestial; after it one experiences not a trace of noble sentiment but rather regret."

[Rod]

Originally posted by Athea:

Originally posted by paulverv:

Originally posted by Hershey:
If you have anything speculative or otherwise to share on the matter, please do share.

I have read somewhere that Beethoven referred to the act of sex as a "beastial union". Could be something lost in translation.
pv

He wrote: "Sensual enjoyment without a union of souls is bestial and will always remain bestial; after it one experiences not a trace of noble sentiment but rather regret."[/B]

IE 'no sex before marriage', hardly a perverse or radical concept at the time.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Fidelio]

Anyone recall this article from The Independent Newspaper, 24 may 2005. 'The Rage of Ludwig'By Michael Church,
Why Beethoven the man continues to hold such fascination for us.

'The principal symptom of this madness was Beethoven's manic determination to wrest custody of his nephew Karl from his brother's widow, in a tug-of-love that he masochistically dragged through the courts. The first psychoanalytical study of this case asserted that Beethoven was an authoritarian sadist transferring his homosexual feelings for his younger brother Caspar on to his nephew Karl, whom he tried to rescue from the 'fatal claws' of his evil mother. Karl, who spent 10 years as a rebellious prisoner in Beethoven's house, finally tried to shoot himself'.

However, Solomon argues that the dead Ludwig was the fantasy-twin whom Beethoven desperately needed to keep alive, and that the forcible appropriation of his nephew Karl was a desperate symbolic ploy to reincarnate the dead brother. Only when Karl attempted suicide did Beethoven relinquish this fantasy.

Too much I feel has been noted from the recollections of Karl Maria von Weber,

'He received me with an affection which was touching; he embraced me most heartily at least six or seven times and finally exclaimed enthusiastically: "Indeed, you're a devil of a fellow! - a good fellow!" We spent the afternoon very merrily and contentedly. This rough, repellent man actually paid court to me, served me at table as if I had been his lady'.

When Beethoven was in a fine mood to receive guests, he could be a totally hospitable host, this unfortunately was a rare case and many people and misinterpreted this genuine friendship for something else.


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Fidelio

Must it be.....it must be

[Rod]

Originally posted by Fidelio:


However, Solomon argues that the dead Ludwig was the fantasy-twin whom Beethoven desperately needed to keep alive, and that the forcible appropriation of his nephew Karl was a desperate symbolic ploy to reincarnate the dead brother. Only when Karl attempted suicide did Beethoven relinquish this fantasy.

It is Solomon who is the fantasist, and yet he is the most respected Beethoven writer around! He is an amateur biographer/musicologist and a wholely amateur psychologist.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-02-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
Anyone recall this article from The Independent Newspaper, 24 may 2005. 'The Rage of Ludwig'By Michael Church,
Why Beethoven the man continues to hold such fascination for us.

'The principal symptom of this madness was Beethoven's manic determination to wrest custody of his nephew Karl from his brother's widow, in a tug-of-love that he masochistically dragged through the courts. The first psychoanalytical study of this case asserted that Beethoven was an authoritarian sadist transferring his homosexual feelings for his younger brother Caspar on to his nephew Karl, whom he tried to rescue from the 'fatal claws' of his evil mother. Karl, who spent 10 years as a rebellious prisoner in Beethoven's house, finally tried to shoot himself'.

However, Solomon argues that the dead Ludwig was the fantasy-twin whom Beethoven desperately needed to keep alive, and that the forcible appropriation of his nephew Karl was a desperate symbolic ploy to reincarnate the dead brother. Only when Karl attempted suicide did Beethoven relinquish this fantasy.

Why these psychologists blind themselves to the obvious is beyond me - the situation is quite straight-forward; with the death of his brother, Beethoven saw it as his duty to bring Karl up as his son, to be a replacement father, with all the responsibilities that entailed. Beethoven obviously knew by this stage in his life that Karl would be the nearest he would come to being a father and I think that explains his determination to exclude Johanna from the relationship.

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'Man know thyself'

[Hershey]

These issues, when it comes to psychology really are fascinating. I do believe, however, that we are all amateurs (in the true sense of the word - as in lovers - ) of the art of penny (pence? Farthing, zloty? Ruble?) psychology. Part of figuring someone else's very complex inner workings gives us something to do - perhaps it makes us feel powerful in some way. Who knows.

Beethoven's situation must have been complicated in the extreme. An absolute genius (is there anyone today who would doubt this? Though Chopin and certain others certainly did...) who has lost the one faculty that in him was at once more perfect than most in his profession, and the one faculty that in the end meant more than all the others...to be plagued with that...and of course to be obsessive-compulsive, it seems - no wonder the Karl episode emerged as it did... or one could simply accept that each life is so very different, so deep in its needs, connnections, values, that it manifests in whatever way it does for more reasons than any one psychological analysis can define.

Beethoven, with such a life - had to be this way - much more complicated than either being "black," "gay," "nuts," simply obsessive compulsive...

In terms of Solomon - indeed, he is difficult to read, and sometimes hard to swallow - but he has devoted his life to the study of Beethoven, and as long as one takes his works as theories or the ideas of one man, one remains safe. It's the blind acceptance of theory that unchallenged eventually becomes fact that is dangerous - and so our questions - but not our defaming - must never stop...

Talk about a rambling musing...