A Really Touchy Question

[Hershey]

Please note - this question comes from an academic standpoint, and not at all from one interested in casting aspersions, wanting a particular outcome for whatever reason, or as a foolish suggestion. This question is geared to those with thoughts and ideas on the matter - as this has been discussed in certain academic circles, and I want to know your thoughts.

Re: Beethoven and sexuality.

While Solomon makes a great case for who the Immortal beloved is, no one really knows, but rather than be curious about the who it is... the fact that this letter was in Beethoven's possession is more curious than the "who." Was it sent and returned? Was it never sent? Was it actually for someone who he could not send it to, and it was his own little dream that he kept in his desk...what kind of real admission is it etc. Most retellings of Beethoven's life vis-a-vis women is that he was constantly after women whom he couldn't ultimately "have." His bizarre relationship to and with Karl suggests unusual internal issues, and while I personally feel that his two year visitation and storysharing with young von Breuning had more to do with the freedom to be open with a youth without the issues that come along with adult behavior, as well as a refelection of the future - what is the thinking from individuals here concerning Beethoven's sexuality - there have been a number of academics the possibility of latent homosexuality - I don't have any particular ideas either way at this point, but this issue has become a part of my current academic discussion.

H

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by Hershey:
...this issue has become a part of my current academic discussion.

The word academic is totally out place here since there is absolutely no evidence in support of the thesis posited. Therefore, any and all discussion on the matter is purely speculative or worse.



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Must it be? It must be!

[Hershey]

Thank you for your note, however, my question is posed simply as a question. The fact that my question is now being discussed in an academic circle at the moment, doesn't change the nature of my question. In my view - such a question can be responded to both academically as well as speculatively, and I make every effort to be a responsible thinker on these matters as I am prepared to define what is speculative and what is academic based on the answers and thoughts received. If there is no academic evidence, then there you have the idea that everything is then speculative, (which is a huge funtion of academia, the responsibility of identification clearly relying upon the author of said thoughts) but this must not discount that somehow, the possibility of important factual information. I would certainly hope and do believe that my recent study of members of this forum reveals that there are certain members who can indeed put forth an argument with academic credibility, whether speculative or otherwise.

If you have anything speculative or otherwise to share on the matter, please do share.

[Peter]

Well Hershey there can be no doubt that Beethoven seems to have been interested in women! The letter to the Immortal beloved for example was definitely addressed to a women - probably one of the few things about it we can say for certain. The letters to Josephine Brunsvik are also of a passionate nature, so much that she tried to distance herself from Beethoven, not welcoming the physical aspects of a relationship with him. Then there are well documented cases of his infatuation with different women, many unattainable as you say. So whilst it is possible he had bisexual tendencies, there is no evidence to support this view, and it is very easy with our 21st century eyes to look back at those times with a Freudian perspective. The likes of Solomon and the Sterbas fall all too easily into this trap in my view.

Similar aspersions have been cast on Handel and Schubert, again with little to back them up, accept in Schubert's case a reference to Benvenuto Cellini has his known preference for young men.



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'Man know thyself'

[Hershey]

Thank you Peter, in my own mind, I think as do you on this matter given what we have. I also don't believe that any one person's sexuality is related entirely to their art - though there are cases made for this all the time.

Now, back to an original question that brings something together here - what of Gerhard Von Breuning... basically, I am really looking for his reason to the best of our knoweldge, based on what he said and what others may have surmised for his writing of Aus Dem Schwarzspanierhaus. While I don't think this had anything to do with either's sexuality, it was a question that was good to ask.

So, if there are any ideas as to why Gerhard commited to this piece so much later in life, thoughts would be appreciated.

[Rod]

There is no doubt Beethoven was interested in women, though his taste was rather too exclusive for his own good, especially considering his sometimes eccentric behaviour. But how 'academics' could think otherwise is beyond me.

We have discussed Solomon's theory for the IB here often. Personally I think it is wholely incorrect and I'm astonished how it has become so readily accepted. But ultimately this is of little importance, the interest lies only in the fact we don't know who she was.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-31-2006).]

[DavidO]

Originally posted by Hershey:
Most retellings of Beethoven's life vis-a-vis women is that he was constantly after women whom he couldn't ultimately "have." His bizarre relationship to and with Karl suggests unusual internal issues, and while I personally feel that his two year visitation and storysharing with young von Breuning had more to do with the freedom to be open with a youth without the issues that come along with adult behavior, as well as a refelection of the future - what is the thinking from individuals here concerning Beethoven's sexuality - there have been a number of academics the possibility of latent homosexuality -

I entertain the possibility of Beethoven's having been homosexual, but outside the granting of possibility of it, I don't really care enough to think about it one way or another. Of the biographical material (including Beethoven's own letters) I have read--& I certainly haven't read a huge amount--I would say that numerous aspects of his behavior & circumstances could indicate a closeted individual. There's really no way of ever knowing at this point--which is true of just about every person. I suppose it might be possible these days to measure brain waves or observe other physiological functions during excitation, & this sort of gauging might prove conclusive. But otherwise, having people's word or basing the conclusion on whether they pursue the opposite sex or even marry the opposite sex tells us nothing conclusive. Many gay men & women marry & have children & spend their lives attempting to "fit in." Closeted means, in most cases, closeted. Outsiders cannot draw perfectly reliable conclusions. We will probably never know Beethoven's sexuality--heterosexual or homosexual or any conceivable point along that alleged continuum.

But having said all of that, I do entertain the possibility of Beethoven's homosexuality when I read certain things about him or by him, any of which taken in isolation means nothing but which together give me this sense (for example, his interaction with many of his male friends & younger male composers); & at other times in my reading (for example, his letters expressing interest in prostitutes), he seems solidly heterosexual.

Bottom line for me: I have no idea & don't really have a heck of a lot of interest, anyway. I'd rather read what little he has to say about his own compositions.

[Rod]

Originally posted by DavidO:

Bottom line for me: I have no idea & don't really have a heck of a lot of interest, anyway. I'd rather read what little he has to say about his own compositions.

Although you are right the evidence is quite clear about Beethoven's sexuality so it should not be an issue on that ground alone, just as it is about his race. Yet there have been politically motivated attempts in the US to make Beethoven gay, or black, perhaps gay AND black! This went so far that for a while in certain schools in the US they were actually telling the kids that Beethoven was black, presumably in some misguided attempt to make him more 'inclusive'. We know this because those same kids and teachers came came to this forum in the past only to be dissappointed with the truth, and then accused us of being racist as a result.

Everybody wants someone like Beethoven to be in their own image...



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hershey:
Thank you Peter, in my own mind, I think as do you on this matter given what we have. I also don't believe that any one person's sexuality is related entirely to their art - though there are cases made for this all the time.

Now, back to an original question that brings something together here - what of Gerhard Von Breuning... basically, I am really looking for his reason to the best of our knoweldge, based on what he said and what others may have surmised for his writing of Aus Dem Schwarzspanierhaus. While I don't think this had anything to do with either's sexuality, it was a question that was good to ask.

So, if there are any ideas as to why Gerhard commited to this piece so much later in life, thoughts would be appreciated.

Well first off let me say I don't consider Beethoven's friendship with the young Gerhard to have had the slightest sexual motivation on either part, regardless if either men ever had such closeted tendencies. It was a relationship of hero worship on the one hand and paternal fondness on the other. Breuning states in the preface to his book that it was the 100th anniversary of Beethoven's birth that was his motivation and in particular the encouragement he received from the Bonn festival committee. In this preface he also mentions that he lost a son on March 11th 1870.

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'Man know thyself'

[paulverv]

Originally posted by Hershey:
If you have anything speculative or otherwise to share on the matter, please do share.
[/B]

I have read somewhere that Beethoven referred to the act of sex as a "beastial union". Could be something lost in translation.
pv

[Hershey]

For Peter - GENIUS. Well done. Thank you. How on earth did I miss this material in his preface? Perhaps overswamped by Solomon's preface. I shall now go back to carefully look at this. If indeed, you have it exactly right, you have solved an enormous issue for a current work.

Is there a way or possibility to email you some material directly. I would be most appreciative, if possible.

Best - Hershey

[robert newman]

Is there not an anecdote from Beethoven's early life where friends introduced him to a barmaid who, flirting with him as a joke, angered him and caused him to physically push her away ? (I seem to remember reading it somewhere though I do not know where).

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hershey:
For Peter - GENIUS. Well done. Thank you. How on earth did I miss this material in his preface? Perhaps overswamped by Solomon's preface. I shall now go back to carefully look at this. If indeed, you have it exactly right, you have solved an enormous issue for a current work.

Is there a way or possibility to email you some material directly. I would be most appreciative, if possible.

Best - Hershey

Glad to have helped - yes of course you may contact me.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hershey:
...If indeed, you have it exactly right, you have solved an enormous issue for a current work.

If you are relying on Solomon for 'a current work' I would be VERY careful!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Athea]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yet there have been politically motivated attempts in the US to make Beethoven gay, or black, perhaps gay AND black! This went so far that for a while in certain schools in the US they were actually telling the kids that Beethoven was black, presumably in some misguided attempt to make him more 'inclusive'. We know this because those same kids and teachers came came to this forum in the past only to be dissappointed with the truth, and then accused us of being racist as a result.

Everybody wants someone like Beethoven to be in their own image...

Horror, Rod. Sometimes I am really surprised what some people are able to do. I have seen a number of various web sites where anyone can find such a stupid 'evidences' of Beethoven's homosexuality and other things (including his possible black origin), but that's too much what you write.

I haven't had opportunity to read Solomon's biography yet. Can anyone tell me what he exactly writes? It seems to be not good enough.