''Beethoven the 'Fool' ''

[robert newman]

I can't imagine doing it, but if I was to write a biography of Beethoven I would call it 'Beethoven the Fool'. This remarkable man became (in the eyes of many of his contemporaries) a fool and this view of him must surely have allowed him to be so often irreverent towards people and institutions - something that a more serious minded man would hardly have been allowed to be. Whether it is his refusal to step aside when meeting dignitaries with Goethe or his many eccentricities this 'foolish' side of Beethoven's character served him well. It gave him licence to express himself. And he took it. And then, near the end of his life he could speak of the 'comedy' being over.

The greatness of Beethoven as a man and as a human being is mirrored by the great things he achieved as a composer.

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I can't imagine doing it, but if I was to write a biography of Beethoven I would call it 'Beethoven the Fool'. This remarkable man became (in the eyes of many of his contemporaries) a fool and this view of him must surely have allowed him to be so often irreverent towards people and institutions - something that a more serious minded man would hardly have been allowed to be. Whether it is his refusal to step aside when meeting dignitaries with Goethe or his many eccentricities this 'foolish' side of Beethoven's character served him well. It gave him licence to express himself. And he took it. And then, near the end of his life he could speak of the 'comedy' being over.

The greatness of Beethoven as a man and as a human being is mirrored by the great things he achieved as a composer.

Perhaps we should all write a chapter!!
Thayer need's updating!

Fidelio


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Must it be.....it must be

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I can't imagine doing it, but if I was to write a biography of Beethoven I would call it 'Beethoven the Fool'. This remarkable man became (in the eyes of many of his contemporaries) a fool and this view of him must surely have allowed him to be so often irreverent towards people and institutions - something that a more serious minded man would hardly have been allowed to be. Whether it is his refusal to step aside when meeting dignitaries with Goethe or his many eccentricities this 'foolish' side of Beethoven's character served him well. It gave him licence to express himself. And he took it. And then, near the end of his life he could speak of the 'comedy' being over.

The greatness of Beethoven as a man and as a human being is mirrored by the great things he achieved as a composer.

I'm not aware that he was thought of as being a fool - a madman or eccentric, yes!

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Few find humour in men considered mad. But there are many stories of Beethoven being laughed at or being portrayed as one who was mad. It is clear that nobody actually claimed he was 'insane' (medically mad), and so I think the word 'fool' (inverted commas) is appropriate. There may well be others that are better, such as 'eccentric'. But the passion of Beethoven, this, even in his private life, can hardly be described as eccentricity.

An adjective to describe that man is very difficult. But how he was described by others who hardly knew him or his music - that is the question.

The late drawings of him walking. They are mocking (even in a friendly way). And Beethoven could and did 'play the fool' as all great men seem able to do.

[Michael]

"Shame on the blind men who took Beethoven for a deaf man."

Does anyone know where that quotation comes from?

Michael

[Fidelio]

See 'The Character of a Genius: Beethoven in Perspective: Character of a Genius' by Peter J. Davies for more details.


Fidelio



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Must it be.....it must be

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

It is clear that nobody actually claimed he was 'insane' (medically mad), and so I think the word 'fool' (inverted commas) is appropriate. There may well be others that are better, such as 'eccentric'. But the passion of Beethoven, this, even in his private life, can hardly be described as eccentricity.

An adjective to describe that man is very difficult. But how he was described by others who hardly knew him or his music - that is the question.

The late drawings of him walking. They are mocking (even in a friendly way). And Beethoven could and did 'play the fool' as all great men seem able to do.

I disagree. Beethoven was no fool. He was deeply intelligent and in perfect control of his art, and I feel his "social betters" were actually in awe of his genius. Nor do I think he was laughed at; the drawings are affectionate caricatures, that's all. For those who didn't know him or his music, the same intimidation mind-set applies.

[lauren]

Originally posted by PDG:
I disagree. Beethoven was no fool. He was deeply intelligent and in perfect control of his art, and I feel his "social betters" were actually in awe of his genius. Nor do I think he was laughed at; the drawings are affectionate caricatures, that's all. For those who didn't know him or his music, the same intimidation mind-set applies.

I agree with you.

[robert newman]

Beethoven was no fool, of course. He was wise. Which is why he was seen by some as a 'fool'.

Thanks Fidelio.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Beethoven was no fool, of course. He was wise. Which is why he was seen by some as a 'fool'.

Thanks Fidelio.

Who saw him as a fool? Certainly not his friends, the aristocracy or musicians or anyone who heard him play, nor the 20,000-30,000 who turned out for his funeral. I don't think he 'played the fool' for one moment (I suspect you've been watching I Claudius Robert!)- he was simply himself, eccentric. Deafness would have exacerbated these traits. There are accounts of him 'behaving like a madman' - we know he wasn't mad (although of course genius is often described as one step away). He was a world famous figure, easily recognisable to the Viennese - except of course a certain policeman who arrested him as a tramp! His wild appearance in later years would of course have been a source of amusement for many, but we know that by this stage Beethoven had little interest in vanity.

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

I think that if someone thinks his life was a comedy that that is ridiculous. This man was a genius and lived one of the harder lives that has been lived.

Yes I have heard him described as paranoid schizophrenic many times and I believe it true.

But to think his life is a comedy is ridiculous. It absolutely for sure anything but. While he may have been laughed at for his looks or his personality (which he could barely control), he, in my opinion, was one the most serious people to ever walk the face of the earth.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
I think that if someone thinks his life was a comedy that that is ridiculous. This man was a genius and lived one of the harder lives that has been lived.

Yes I have heard him described as paranoid schizophrenic many times and I believe it true.

But to think his life is a comedy is ridiculous. It absolutely for sure anything but. While he may have been laughed at for his looks or his personality (which he could barely control), he, in my opinion, was one the most serious people to ever walk the face of the earth.

Kind Regards,
Preston

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Beethoven was a paranoid schizophrenic. He did not hear voices, suffer from delusions, hallucinate or have a split personality. Due to his deafness I think he did become paranoid - quite understandable I think under the circumstances when you feel isolated from society and the world.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-30-2006).]

[robert newman]

Beethoven was able, in his life, to get away with some outrageous things within the society in which he lived. His statements of the nobility, his dedication of the Eroica (later scratched out in anger), his statements in conversation to leading members of society etc. etc. etc.- his personal life, his attitude towards those who would not listen to him when he was playing, the message of his opera 'Fidelio', and a thousand other things we today admire and love about him - are they not the sort of thing that would, within society of that time, have normally prompted men to stop him, or at least to have him labelled as a subversive - a critic of society as was Schiller and others? And what happened to such people in those days ? They were arrested. Beethoven was beyond reasonable doubt an entertainer to them - a sort of tolerated 'fool'. It was this, I believe, that he spoke of near the end of his life when he said, 'The comedy is over'.

Beethoven was asserting himself, as a man and as an artist. Nothing was more risky. And yet he did it. 'Let me be a fool to you if it pleases you' - that is the message he seems to have been giving at public level. But in his private life, that, of course, was very different.

It's just my reading of him and I agree others here know his life and works far better than I.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Beethoven was beyond reasonable doubt an entertainer to them - a sort of tolerated 'fool'. It was this, I believe, that he spoke of near the end of his life when he said, 'The comedy is over'.

They tolerated him because of his position as the world's greatest living composer and put it down to his eccentricity - that is the word, not fool. You don't seriously believe the authorities regarded a man of such eminence and renown as a fool?

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'Man know thyself'