Audio Goodies

[robert newman]

Yes Rod, but until I was sure the work really existed there would be no point looking for it.
Ha ha !

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Robert;

The Vienna publisher Franz Gloggl wrote in 1872:

"Beethoven was on intimate terms with my father, Kapellmeister of Linz Franz Xaver Groggl, when Beethoven was there in 1812. He was at our house every day and took meals with us. My father asked him to write an equale for 6 trombones. Beethoven wanted to hear an equale such as played at funerals in Linz and one afternoon my father invited three trombonists and had them play an equale. Beethoven then sat down and composed one for 6 trombones, which my father had his trombonists play."

Now, on 19 July 1838, Franz Xaver Gloggl responds to Robert Schumann's request for information:

"...Beethoven wrote for me several funeral pieces for trombones, of which I gave some to my friend [Tobias] Haslinger in Vienna, and one of which was performed at Beethoven's funeral. He wrote them in my home, and of them I kept one for myself."

Tobias Haslinger received only the 3 equali for 4 trombones (now known as WoO 30) from Groggl the elder. Gloggl must have kept for himself the 6-trombone equale!! And this 6-trombone equale was not amongst the manuscripts Groggl left to the Society of the Friends of Music following his death in 1839.

Where is this missing equale? I would think it is in the Linz Kapell archives.


Hofrat

The equali (WoO 30), as we know was composed at the request of Kapellmeister Gloggl who had a set of old trombones and asked Beethoven to write a type of funeral music for six trombones. I'm not sure a piece does exsist. Is it just a case of somebody asking Beethoven to do something and he does something completely different?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
The equali (WoO 30), as we know was composed at the request of Kapellmeister Gloggl who had a set of old trombones and asked Beethoven to write a type of funeral music for six trombones. I'm not sure a piece does exsist. Is it just a case of somebody asking Beethoven to do something and he does something completely different?

6 trombones would be unusual as equali were genrerally written for 4 trombones.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Yes Rod, but until I was sure the work really existed there would be no point looking for it.
Ha ha !

Since when has hard evidence been a prerequisite for any of your other musical adventures!? Could it be that the lack of a Luchesi connection means the lack of a Newman connection...?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
The equali (WoO 30), as we know was composed at the request of Kapellmeister Gloggl who had a set of old trombones and asked Beethoven to write a type of funeral music for six trombones. I'm not sure a piece does exsist. Is it just a case of somebody asking Beethoven to do something and he does something completely different?

Dear Fidelio;

No!! This is not the case. Playing trombone equali at funerals and on "All Souls' Day" was a tradition specific to Linz and its environs, so specific that Beethoven never heard one played despite living in Vienna 20 years. Linz Kapellmeister Gloggl had to organize a playing of an equale so that Beethoven could grasp the form. Only then did Beethoven sit down and and compose his equali. Immediately following was a playthrough (these are very short pieces so this would have taken only 3-4 minutes).

Another point to firm up the Linz connection, Tobias Haslinger studied music in Linz under Gloggl.


Hofrat

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Fidelio;

No!! This is not the case. Playing trombone equali at funerals and on "All Souls' Day" was a tradition specific to Linz and its environs, so specific that Beethoven never heard one played despite living in Vienna 20 years. Linz Kapellmeister Gloggl had to organize a playing of an equale so that Beethoven could grasp the form. Only then did Beethoven sit down and and compose his equali. Immediately following was a playthrough (these are very short pieces so this would have taken only 3-4 minutes).

Another point to firm up the Linz connection, Tobias Haslinger studied music in Linz under Gloggl.

Hofrat

Thanks. I understand the meaning of the equali, but what is not the case? That Gloggl didn't request the composition or that Beethoven did not compose an equali for six trombones?

[Joy]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Fidelio;

No!! This is not the case. Playing trombone equali at funerals and on "All Souls' Day" was a tradition specific to Linz and its environs, so specific that Beethoven never heard one played despite living in Vienna 20 years. Linz Kapellmeister Gloggl had to organize a playing of an equale so that Beethoven could grasp the form. Only then did Beethoven sit down and and compose his equali. Immediately following was a playthrough (these are very short pieces so this would have taken only 3-4 minutes).

Another point to firm up the Linz connection, Tobias Haslinger studied music in Linz under Gloggl.


Hofrat

So was this equali written for 6 trombones or 4 trombones as Peter suggested that using 6 trombones were highly unusual?



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Joy:
So was this equali written for 6 trombones or 4 trombones as Peter suggested that using 6 trombones were highly unusual?

WoO 30 was written for four trombones

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Must it be.....it must be

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
WoO 30 was written for four trombones

Dear Fidelio;

According to Gloggl the Elder, Beethoven wrote several equali for him. Gloggl later gave three of them (the WoO 30 equali for 4 trombones) to Haslinger and kept one for himself.

According to Gloggl the Younger, Beethoven also wrote an equale for 6 trombones and this was the one his father kept. Gloggl the Younger was an eye witness to the composition and the playthrough of this equale.

I hope this is clear now.


Hofrat

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Fidelio;

According to Gloggl the Elder, Beethoven wrote several equali for him. Gloggl later gave three of them (the WoO 30 equali for 4 trombones) to Haslinger and kept one for himself.

According to Gloggl the Younger, Beethoven also wrote an equale for 6 trombones and this was the one his father kept. Gloggl the Younger was an eye witness to the composition and the playthrough of this equale.

I hope this is clear now.


Hofrat

Many thanks.
I'm interested in this case......are you able to share the evidence? Are you able to give me some references please?

Fidelio

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Must it be.....it must be

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
Many thanks.
I'm interested in this case......are you able to share the evidence? Are you able to give me some references please?

Fidelio

Dear Fidelio;

My information comes from an article that appeared in the *Historic Brass Society Journal* (volume 14, 2002). The article is by the trombone historian (and my mentor) Howard Weiner and is entitled "Beethoven's Equali (WoO 30): A New Perspective."

By the way, Thayer also mentions the 6-trombone equale (look under Gloggl).

Good hunting, Fidelio! Let us know how things are going!


Hofrat

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Fidelio;

My information comes from an article that appeared in the *Historic Brass Society Journal* (volume 14, 2002). The article is by the trombone historian (and my mentor) Howard Weiner and is entitled "Beethoven's Equali (WoO 30): A New Perspective."

By the way, Thayer also mentions the 6-trombone equale (look under Gloggl).

Good hunting, Fidelio! Let us know how things are going!


Hofrat

Thats good, many thanks, I'll let you know.

Fidelio


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Must it be.....it must be

[robert newman]

4 musicians could, with great difficulty, read from the same piece of music. But if a piece was composed for 6 instruments and was played on the day of its composition I believe there must surely have been parts made also. The minimum number music stands must have been 2 - identical copies of the score. One used by 3 players and the other used by the other 3 players.

Would such trombone music normally have been played in funeral processions or at the graveside - or in the church ?

Seems to me that a score must have been written by Beethoven and parts for it on that same day. The latter by a copyist of Linz.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

4 musicians could, with great difficulty, read from the same piece of music. But if a piece was composed for 6 instruments and was played on the day of its composition I believe there must surely have been parts made also. The minimum number music stands must have been 2 - identical copies of the score. One used by 3 players and the other used by the other 3 players.

Would such trombone music normally have been played in funeral processions or at the graveside - or in the church ?

Seems to me that a score must have been written by Beethoven and parts for it on that same day. The latter by a copyist of Linz.

Dear Robert;

Sorry to disappoint you but Beethoven only wrote the scores for these pieces. Howard Weiner included facsimiles of the Beethoven manuscripts in his illuminating article (4 pages of 20-staved paper). There is even a composition error (in one of the equali, Beethoven forgot that he was in tenor clef for a bar or two!). If Gloggl needed parts, he could do it himself or have his own copyists do it (he was a kapellmeister).

Funeral equali were not processional pieces. They were performed at the church and at the grave side. At Beethoven's funeral, they were performed processionally too but that was a deviation from Linz tradition.


Hofrat

[DavidO]

Originally posted by robert newman:

4 musicians could, with great difficulty, read from the same piece of music.

What if one of them had horrendous B.O. or halitosis? I should never have been able to stand it.