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**Rod** · 08-23-2006, 02:27 AM

I won't download this music as I have too much already, but the horn and trombone music especially are rarely heard and real treats. Morally you should quote the sources David!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-22-2006).]

**DavidO** · 08-23-2006, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Rod:
I won't download this music as I have too much already, but the horn and trombone music especially are rarely heard and real treats. Morally you should quote the sources David!

Sources indicated on the MP3 tags on each audio file.

I'm loving these minor treats--I've been on a little-known Beethoven binge on CD lately.

**Rod** · 08-23-2006, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by DavidO:
Sources indicated on the MP3 tags on each audio file.

I'm loving these minor treats--I've been on a little-known Beethoven binge on CD lately.

It's only relatively recently thay you could even buy recordings of great music like the Equali. I suppose Beethoven playing trombone ensembles are few and few between!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Hofrat** · 08-23-2006, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
It's only relatively recently thay you could even buy recordings of great music like the Equali. I suppose Beethoven playing trombone ensembles are few and few between!

Dear Rod;

These trombone ensembles were a very popular tradition in Linz, Austria during Beethoven's life time. Beethoven wrote his 3 equali for 4 trombones while visiting Linz in 1812, and there is evidence that he wrote one for 6 trombones. So, anyone in the Linz environs might want to check the archives there for this missing equale!

Hofrat

**Rod** · 08-25-2006, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Rod;
So, anyone in the Linz environs might want to check the archives there for this missing equale!

Hofrat

Sounds like a Newman job!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-25-2006).]

**Joy** · 08-25-2006, 08:42 PM

DETECTIVE Newman, that is!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**Rod** · 08-26-2006, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Joy:
DETECTIVE Newman, that is!

Newman PI. All he needs now is the Ferarri, moustache and Hawaiian shirt.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**robert newman** · 08-26-2006, 01:52 AM

Well Rod, you've set a difficult task - to find a missing Beethoven piece (an equali for 6 trombones from the Linz area). I would first like proof that such a piece existed. The rest would be, (all things being equali) elementary Dr Watson !

**Rod** · 08-26-2006, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well Rod, you've set a difficult task - to find a missing Beethoven piece (an equali for 6 trombones from the Linz area). I would first like proof that such a piece existed. The rest would be, (all things being equali) elementary Dr Watson !

Lack of proof has never prevented your imaginative notions regarding Beethoven in the past, so you go for it Sherlock!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Hofrat** · 08-26-2006, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well Rod, you've set a difficult task - to find a missing Beethoven piece (an equali for 6 trombones from the Linz area). I would first like proof that such a piece existed. The rest would be, (all things being equali) elementary Dr Watson !

Dear Robert;

The Vienna publisher Franz Gloggl wrote in 1872:

"Beethoven was on intimate terms with my father, Kapellmeister of Linz Franz Xaver Groggl, when Beethoven was there in 1812. He was at our house every day and took meals with us. My father asked him to write an equale for 6 trombones. Beethoven wanted to hear an equale such as played at funerals in Linz and one afternoon my father invited three trombonists and had them play an equale. Beethoven then sat down and composed one for 6 trombones, which my father had his trombonists play."

Now, on 19 July 1838, Franz Xaver Gloggl responds to Robert Schumann's request for information:

"...Beethoven wrote for me several funeral pieces for trombones, of which I gave some to my friend [Tobias] Haslinger in Vienna, and one of which was performed at Beethoven's funeral. He wrote them in my home, and of them I kept one for myself."

Tobias Haslinger received only the 3 equali for 4 trombones (now known as WoO 30) from Groggl the elder. Gloggl must have kept for himself the 6-trombone equale!! And this 6-trombone equale was not amongst the manuscripts Groggl left to the Society of the Friends of Music following his death in 1839.

Where is this missing equale? I would think it is in the Linz Kapell archives.

Hofrat

**Joy** · 08-26-2006, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by Rod:
Newman PI. All he needs now is the Ferarri, moustache and Hawaiian shirt.

Go Magnum!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**robert newman** · 08-26-2006, 04:33 AM

Dear Hofrat and Rod,

Thanks, I am sure now this Beethoven piece from 1812 actually existed. How it could be found is of course another matter.

I am by chance fairly familiar with the life and career of the composer, theorist and Kapellmeister FX Gloggl (1764-1839) and have written on him in the past elsewhere in connection with the career reputations of Mozart and Haydn. This makes me think along similar lines to Hofrat about the likeliest location of this missing piece. But my suggestion is slightly different from Hofrat's and it involves first explaining some things. (Hopefully their relevance will become obvious by the end of this post).

Gloggl as Kapellmeister in Linz (the father of the publisher quoted by Hofrat) is known to have been in contact with leading composers. Of this we are quite sure. Beethoven's stay in 1812 is one example. He had also years before subscribed to newly published groups of 'Haydn' symphonies which were sent to him at the Linz Cathedral from the printing presses by Haydn himself. There is a letter from Haydn to Gloggl (still extant) dated 24th July 1799 in which Haydn thanks Gloggl for order of 6 symphonies describing him as 'my old and clever friend', and thanking him for the subscription. We are sure there was a very active musical situation in the Linz area in the last decades of the 18th century - one where symphonies would be performed.

But there is a second Linz angle and this comes from the last years of Mozart's life. From his prosecution in Vienna by Lichnowsky (which came to a head literally weeks before Mozart's death). That prosecution (the details of which were only discovered in the 20th century) went without reference by early Mozart biographers. I mention it only because it may well have involved a music manuscript collecting 'friend' of the Mozart's who relocated to work at Linz around the time of Mozart's death in December 1791 for a few years and who died in 1833 - Abbe Maximilian Stadler. Stadler (theoretician, composer and one of the first people to get access to Mozart's manuscripts after Mozart's death - a man who worked with the Mozart manuscripts right up until the year of his death and who actually owned some of them through Constanze Mozart) was appointed by the Archbishop of Linz to become a court officer of the Linz Consistory Court. It was in Linz that Stadler settled and lived for several years (c1790-6). It appears that Stadler was himself employed in cases where the arts and music were involved. That he must therefore have been well aware of and even possibly involved in Mozart's prosecution. A prosecution that may not have actually taken place at Vienna (as has always been supposed) but at Linz. And that Stadler, being a collector of musical manuscripts knew of course of Beethoven. (A letter is extant from Stadler at the British Museum in a miscellany asking the Vienna publisher Artaria about a late Mozart quintet which he, Stadler, has at Linz).

I don't know what happened to Stadler's personal papers from 1833 onwards. But he had lived an illustrious career. He had been a noted composer himself. Mostly vocal music, much of it sacred. His oratorio 'Die Befreyung von Jerusalem' written around the time of Beethoven's visit to Linz (published Vienna, ca. 1813) was quite successful. He also wrote chamber music and keyboard pieces. He wrote several articles and attempted a history of music in Austria, 'Materialen zur Geschichte der Musik unter den österreichischen Regenten'. Always described as a 'friend of Mozart' he may in fact have been involved in his prosecution though his pupil Sussmayer is of course associated with supposed completion of 'Mozart's Requiem'. He is elsewhere described as an 'advisor' to the widow Mozart.

But Stadler had a long career. He had been abbot of two Benedictine monastries including the famous Kremsmunster. At it's from the time of Mozart's legal worries (1789 onwards) that Stadler, Sussymayr and others from Kremsmunster begin to feature in Mozart's story). They suddenly begin to feature prominently in the late Mozart correspondence. Sussmayr is described (not by Mozart) as a 'pupil'. He is definitely close to Constanze.

So, my guess would be try to find the papers (if they still exist) of Maximilian Stadler. He knew Gloggl very well. They had once lived close to each other. And Stadler was a great music collector. By 1812 he would have been interested in any manuscript by Beethoven had it come his way.

Also, of course, Beethoven had only a few years before published his early (1796) wind Sextet. Known today as op.71 in E Flat. Might he not have written a movement of this (perhaps the Adagio) as this missing work for 6 trombones ? Beethoven in 1809 described this wind sextet to his publishers as belonging -

'to my earlier work and was, moreover, written in a single night. There is nothing more to be said but that it is the work of an author who has done at least a few better things, yet for many people these are best."

(It's possible Beethoven wrote a version of the adagio from his own Op.71 for the 6 trombonists at Linz. It had only been published quite recently in 1812 and may have come in to Beethoven's mind in Linz).

Only suggestions of course.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-26-2006).]

**jdidlock** · 08-26-2006, 02:01 PM

Interesting to see that others have discovered the delights of YouSendIt.com. I use it a lot to send often quite large music files to friends. I also use a site called SoulSeek which, although originally meant as a means for composers to exchange their music, has become a huge file sharing site, it is free and is not plagued with spam or ads. There used not to be much classical stuff but this has improved.

Thanks for the Beethoven pieces, btw. I'll look to see if they feature in my complete BBC Radio 3 Beethoven Experience archive.

[This message has been edited by jdidlock (edited 08-26-2006).]

**Rod** · 08-26-2006, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Hofrat and Rod,

Thanks, I am sure now this Beethoven piece from 1812 actually existed. How it could be found is of course another matter...

Rob I have no particular reason to doubt that the work was probably composed, what I want you to do is go out there and find it!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

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