Did Beethoven write any pieces with a harp or guitar in them?

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I'm thinking of a "lineage" or style of orchestration for the Symphony including Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, etc. Berlioz, on the other hand had his inspiration, undoubtedly, from the orchestrations of the French Grand Opera.

It appears to me that Beethoven was fairly conventional as an orchestrator and perhaps a tad conservative?

Dear Serrano;

By 1685, you could not find a trombone or a trombonist in France. Only in 1774 with Parisian productions of operas by Gluck (a German!) were trombones reintroduced to France. Gluck utilized German trumpeters and hornists, already living and working in Paris, who were able to double on the trombone. Only from 1810 do trombonists appear on the payroll of the Grand Opera of Paris.

In French orchestral music at the time of Beethoven and Eggert, a single trombone often doubled the bass line during tutti passages. The trombone passages were totally denuded of any rhythmic or melodic significance. If the bass line displayed any thematic importance or technical difficulties, the trombones doubled a simpler line. In contemporary Austrian orchestral music, three trombones frequently doubled the strings or the woodwinds, in unison or an octave below, often playing intricate rhythms and ornate passages.

In light of the above, it seems that the French trombone writing is more conservative compared to Austrian trombone writing. This is strange since French music was considered avante garde in Austria. One thing for sure, French composers certainly did not trust their trombonists, relegating to them such simplified grunts every now and then. Then again, Beethoven seems to have his doubts about his trombonists. In the beginning of the 4th movement tutti in the 5th symphony, whenever the orchestra played rhythm figures of a dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth, the trombones are silent while everyone else is thundering!!


Hofrat

[Michael]

Originally posted by PDG:
RE: BEETHOVEN AS A CONVENTIONAL AND CONSERVATIVE ORCHESTRAT0R
Hi Sorrano. This post jumped out at me when I saw it. If you post this view as a New Topic, I think you will generate very good traffic. Go on, trust me!!

You took the words right out of my keyboard, PDG! Next they will be saying he was deaf!

Michael

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Serrano;

By 1685, you could not find a trombone or a trombonist in France. Only in 1774 with Parisian productions of operas by Gluck (a German!) were trombones reintroduced to France. Gluck utilized German trumpeters and hornists, already living and working in Paris, who were able to double on the trombone. Only from 1810 do trombonists appear on the payroll of the Grand Opera of Paris.

In French orchestral music at the time of Beethoven and Eggert, a single trombone often doubled the bass line during tutti passages. The trombone passages were totally denuded of any rhythmic or melodic significance. If the bass line displayed any thematic importance or technical difficulties, the trombones doubled a simpler line. In contemporary Austrian orchestral music, three trombones frequently doubled the strings or the woodwinds, in unison or an octave below, often playing intricate rhythms and ornate passages.

In light of the above, it seems that the French trombone writing is more conservative compared to Austrian trombone writing. This is strange since French music was considered avante garde in Austria. One thing for sure, French composers certainly did not trust their trombonists, relegating to them such simplified grunts every now and then. Then again, Beethoven seems to have his doubts about his trombonists. In the beginning of the 4th movement tutti in the 5th symphony, whenever the orchestra played rhythm figures of a dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth, the trombones are silent while everyone else is thundering!!


Hofrat

Are you referring strictly to symphonic usage or operatic as well?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Michael:
You took the words right out of my keyboard, PDG! Next they will be saying he was deaf!

Michael

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Are you referring strictly to symphonic usage or operatic as well?

Dear Sorrano;

I thought I was clear this time. From 1685 till 1774, there were no trombones or trombonists in France. Not in the opera and not in symphony. Gluck's arrival in Paris (1774) brought the trombone back to the opera. Trombonists were hired for the opera on a "need for play" basis. That means, they were hired for specific operas (those calling for trombones). Only from 1810 do trombonists appear on the permanent payroll of the Grand Opera of Paris, meaning only then were trombonists needed in the French opera house on a permanent basis.

At the turn of the 19th century, the French started to add a single trombone to strengthen the bass line in their orchestral music (symphony, sinfonia concertante, and concerto). This style did not catch on anywhere else in Europe. The greatest trombone innovator in French orchestral music was Berlioz, starting around 1830.

By the way, the situation was not much better in England. There, too, in the late 1680's the trombone disappeared. In 1738, Handl could score trombones in several of his oratorios because he could utilize a group of visiting German trombonists. Once these Germans left England, the trombones disappeared from Handl's music. Even as late as 1784, the organizers of the Handl Commemorations in London could not find trombonists in England. Once again, it was the Germans who saved the day. The military band of the British monarch had 6 German trombonists who were "released from duty" to perform Handl.


Hofrat

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Sorrano;

I thought I was clear this time. From 1685 till 1774, there were no trombones or trombonists in France. Not in the opera and not in symphony. Gluck's arrival in Paris (1774) brought the trombone back to the opera. Trombonists were hired for the opera on a "need for play" basis. That means, they were hired for specific operas (those calling for trombones). Only from 1810 do trombonists appear on the permanent payroll of the Grand Opera of Paris, meaning only then were trombonists needed in the French opera house on a permanent basis.

At the turn of the 19th century, the French started to add a single trombone to strengthen the bass line in their orchestral music (symphony, sinfonia concertante, and concerto). This style did not catch on anywhere else in Europe. The greatest trombone innovator in French orchestral music was Berlioz, starting around 1830.

By the way, the situation was not much better in England. There, too, in the late 1680's the trombone disappeared. In 1738, Handl could score trombones in several of his oratorios because he could utilize a group of visiting German trombonists. Once these Germans left England, the trombones disappeared from Handl's music. Even as late as 1784, the organizers of the Handl Commemorations in London could not find trombonists in England. Once again, it was the Germans who saved the day. The military band of the British monarch had 6 German trombonists who were "released from duty" to perform Handl.


Hofrat

Understood! I am looking for Berlioz's influences in respect to his extravagant scoring. Trombones would be a part of the operatic orchesta during his early life. It was a musicologist professor that gave me the indication that Berlioz was influenced by (at least) the dramatics of the French Grand Opera.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Preston;

"Creatures of Prometheus" and "Leonore Prohaska" have been recorded on CD. I have seen a video of a concert performance of "Prometheus" (that is, the music was played but not danced). That is how I learned about Beethoven's only use of the basset horn. I have never seen the dancing performed or recorded.


Hofrat

If I recall correctly, I have read that the choreography and any attendant parts to "Creatures..." is lost, all that remains is the music. I will try to find this reference and post it. I personally find the great variety of the music and its tremendous beauty make "Creatures..." one of B's greatest works that many (most?) people have never heard.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:

If I recall correctly, I have read that the choreography and any attendant parts to "Creatures..." is lost, all that remains is the music. I will try to find this reference and post it. I personally find the great variety of the music and its tremendous beauty make "Creatures..." one of B's greatest works that many (most?) people have never heard.

Cheers,
Gurn

There should be nothing to stop a newly choreographed production. I'm not sure how long a typical ballet lasts these days, but I was thinking perhaps the work is not long enough on it's own as a night's entertainment. It certainly would provide a refreshing change to the usual Romantic fodder.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:

There should be nothing to stop a newly choreographed production. I'm not sure how long a typical ballet lasts these days, but I was thinking perhaps the work is not long enough on it's own as a night's entertainment. It certainly would provide a refreshing change to the usual Romantic fodder.

Absolutely. I would love to see such a thing too. I'm not sure it isn't long enough, other than the Late Romantic dance-a-thons, most ballets have a similar amount of music lengthwise. In any case, it is something I would pay to see!

Cheers,
Gurn

[Michael]

I remember seeing a video clip from Beethoven's only other "ballet", the twelve minute Ritterballet, one of his earliest known compositions, so someone went to the trouble of staging that piece.

Michael

[gardibolt]

There is one piece for guitar: the song An die Geliebte, WoO 140, which states that it is for piano or guitar. You can hear an instrumental version of it here:
http://www.unheardbeethoven.org/sear...e=woo140gt.mp3

There are also the four pieces for mandolin, which are certainly out of the ordinary.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by gardibolt:
There is one piece for guitar: the song An die Geliebte, WoO 140, which states that it is for piano or guitar. You can hear an instrumental version of it here:
http://www.unheardbeethoven.org/sear...e=woo140gt.mp3

There are also the four pieces for mandolin, which are certainly out of the ordinary.

Thank you very much for the link; I will check this out!

[Joy]

How far back does the guitar go? When was it invented?

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Joy:
How far back does the guitar go? When was it invented?

Lots of helpful info at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar

[Joy]

Thanks for that Fidelio. Lots of useful information. I had no idea the guitar was that old and so many variations of it! Very interesting!

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'Truth and beauty joined'