Audio Badies

[Rod]

Ok this is the first and most substantial movement from a sonta for flute and piano alleged to be Beethoven's. Personally I think not listening to this. The piano technique, the general phrasing of the music altogether does not tickle my Beethovenian funny bone whatsoever. Nevertheless I invite everyone to have a listen and make a comment:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/7817175...onata.wma.html

This is from the two CD set of Beethoven's complete chamber music for flute on Vox label by Jean-Pierre Rampal (flute) and Robert Veyron-Lacroix (piano)

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-22-2006).]

[Peter]

I shall listen later today Rod and give my humble assessment!

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'Man know thyself'

[Fidelio]

I have just purchased this CD (arrived this morning)for the arrangement of the Serenade Op 25 for Flute and Piano Op 41, arranged by Kleinheinz but corrected and approved by B.

The notes for the Sonata state the work was published at the beginning of this century from a manuscript found in Berlin and bearing an inscription with a name that could very well be Beethoven's. those scholars in favour of this being a work by Beethoven draw attention to the beginning of the development section in the first movement. This passage, in effect imposes itself suddenly by moving to the key of D major, a tonality relatively remote from both the tonic on B flat and the dominant key of F. If it is a Beethoven work.....it dates from around 1790.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
I have just purchased this CD (arrived this morning)for the arrangement of the Serenade Op 25 for Flute and Piano Op 41, arranged by Kleinheinz but corrected and approved by B.

The notes for the Sonata state the work was published at the beginning of this century from a manuscript found in Berlin and bearing an inscription with a name that could very well be Beethoven's. those scholars in favour of this being a work by Beethoven draw attention to the beginning of the development section in the first movement. This passage, in effect imposes itself suddenly by moving to the key of D major, a tonality relatively remote from both the tonic on B flat and the dominant key of F. If it is a Beethoven work.....it dates from around 1790.

Cooper says the work was found amongst Beethoven's papers after his death and the manuscript copy not in Beethoven's hand is headed 'I Sonata....di Bethoe'.

If I heard it without knowing the Beethoven connection, he would not spring to mind as the composer. There are passages that do sound like Beethoven, but some of the virtuoso flute passages don't feel right to me. This is difficult though because the Sonatinas in Anh5 which are also spurious, do sound Beethovenish!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-23-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
I have just purchased this CD (arrived this morning)for the arrangement of the Serenade Op 25 for Flute and Piano Op 41, arranged by Kleinheinz but corrected and approved by B.

The notes for the Sonata state the work was published at the beginning of this century from a manuscript found in Berlin and bearing an inscription with a name that could very well be Beethoven's. those scholars in favour of this being a work by Beethoven draw attention to the beginning of the development section in the first movement. This passage, in effect imposes itself suddenly by moving to the key of D major, a tonality relatively remote from both the tonic on B flat and the dominant key of F. If it is a Beethoven work.....it dates from around 1790.

I don't think much of Op41, although Beethoven corrected it the style overall is not of Beethoven's quality.

If one looks at the other pieces we have from Beethoven's mid to late teens (or any other time for that matter) they sound nothing like the flute sonata. By the age of 20 beethoven could compose a vastly superior piece to this sonata. Certainly if this is Beethoven's work it is the only piece of his I've ever heard that I don't like! What do you think Fidelio?

This reminds me of a recording of an alleged St John Passion I have by Handel from his early days. Circumstantial evidence suggests it COULD be Handel's, but from even a casual listen there is not one single Handelian note in the whole piece. And people wonder why I have no respect for the academic musical establishment.

And in HMV this weekend I saw a new recording in the Beethoven section of the 'Modlinger dances', another act of fraud by the recording industry. If this music is by Beethoven my middle name is 'van'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-23-2006).]

[Fidelio]

It's a problem that DG had when putting together the Complete Edition as to what constitutes a ‘Beethoven Work’. An arrangement of his own work, composed by him (as the Violin/Piano Concerto) constitutes a work? Something arranged by someone else and corrected by Beethoven (as in Op. 41)…..not sure.

In any case Rod, I have to concur……It’s a woeful work and a poor CD.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
It's a problem that DG had when putting together the Complete Edition as to what constitutes a ‘Beethoven Work’. An arrangement of his own work, composed by him (as the Violin/Piano Concerto) constitutes a work? Something arranged by someone else and corrected by Beethoven (as in Op. 41)…..not sure.

In any case Rod, I have to concur……It’s a woeful work and a poor CD.

There is a trio for three flutes included but this is not Beethoven's either. The performance of the trio for piano, bassoon and flute is not too bad from this set. Ironically yet another beethoven piece Robert has doubts about.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-23-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
There is a trio for three flutes included but this is not Beethoven's either. The performance of the trio for piano, bassoon and flute is not too bad from this set. Ironically yet another beethoven piece Robert has doubts about.

Yes but he doesn't seem to have any doubts about the flute sonata!



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes but he doesn't seem to have any doubts about the flute sonata!

I'd appreciate your assement of the flute sonata wma Peter, and I will allow people to disagree with me!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'd appreciate your assement of the flute sonata wma Peter, and I will allow people to disagree with me!

Rod I have already posted on this and I tend to agree with you - particularly the virtuoso flute passages sound wrong to me.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Rod I have already posted on this and I tend to agree with you - particularly the virtuoso flute passages sound wrong to me.

Sorry I missed your post above, must be getting old. I agree with your point about the flute, sounds too fancy for Beethoven, not in the best taste. The Beethoven style is absent in the piano part also, nobody composed like Beethoven for the piano so this is usually the easiest part to look at.

You know I lean to the point of view that the sonatinas could be Beethoven's, because I like them! The other Anh I am interested in is the fantastic Rondo Anh6. If Beethoven didn't compose this then there is some other super-genius Beethoven-like pianist that is lost to history.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-23-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Sorry I missed your post above, must be getting old. I agree with your point about the flute, sounds too fancy for Beethoven, not in the best taste. The Beethoven style is absent in the piano part also, nobody composed like Beethoven for the piano so this is usually the easiest part to look at.

You know I lean to the point of view that the sonatinas could be Beethoven's, because I like them! The other Anh I am interested in is the fantastic Rondo Anh6. If Beethoven didn't compose this then there is some other super-genius Beethoven-like pianist that is lost to history.

That Rondo is indeed a little gem - I'm fond of the sonatinas myself, particularly the F major.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

I've listened to the first movement of this 'Beethoven Flute Sontata' provided by Rod and here is my first impression.

I now understand why the editors of the'Groves Dictionary' put a question mark next to its description as a 'Flute Sonata' in the first place. My impression is that the flute part is far more consistent in musical quality than the keyboard part.

Curiously, in the final minute or so of the movement the keyboard part, to me, begins to sound (for the first time) like possible Beethoven. But not before. At least, that is my opinion at the very first hearing. The flute part also appears to have been altered although most of it is consistent in its own terms.

WAS this piece in the possession of Beethoven at the time of his death in 1827 ? On what evidence is that view based ? Unless/until this basic question of its history is answered how can we know whether it has significance or not ? It is, at face value, a very strange movement in a style that is certainly from the 1780's early 1790's.

My personal hunch is that the keyboard part was hastily written by someone after Beethoven's death (with the exception of the last minute or so)with a view to selling it/having it published as a 'flute sonata'. But it was originally not meant as such.

Here is undoubtedly music requiring the flute player to be technically gifted. In this sense it matches the need for a work to be found from 1790-2 that was virtuose.

This may be a flute part from a work for orchestra which some 'hack' has obscured by writing a third rate keyboard part to create the illusion that it was meant to be a sonata.

It is not a sonata in any meaningful sense. It is mysterious. That Beethoven may have written most of the flute part cannot (in my view) be ruled out. That he, Beethoven, wrote most of the keyboard part seems to me false.

[Fidelio]

[QUOTE]WAS this piece in the possession of Beethoven at the time of his death in 1827 ?

Cooper dates this 1790-92(?), manuscript copy found among Beethoven's papers after his death headed 'I Sonata....di Bethoe' but not in his handwriting.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I've listened to the first movement of this 'Beethoven Flute Sontata' provided by Rod and here is my first impression.

I now understand why the editors of the'Groves Dictionary' put a question mark next to its description as a 'Flute Sonata' in the first place. My impression is that the flute part is far more consistent in musical quality than the keyboard part.

Curiously, in the final minute or so of the movement the keyboard part, to me, begins to sound (for the first time) like possible Beethoven. But not before. At least, that is my opinion at the very first hearing. The flute part also appears to have been altered although most of it is consistent in its own terms.

WAS this piece in the possession of Beethoven at the time of his death in 1827 ? On what evidence is that view based ? Unless/until this basic question of its history is answered how can we know whether it has significance or not ? It is, at face value, a very strange movement in a style that is certainly from the 1780's early 1790's.

My personal hunch is that the keyboard part was hastily written by someone after Beethoven's death (with the exception of the last minute or so)with a view to selling it/having it published as a 'flute sonata'. But it was originally not meant as such.

Here is undoubtedly music requiring the flute player to be technically gifted. In this sense it matches the need for a work to be found from 1790-2 that was virtuose.

This may be a flute part from a work for orchestra which some 'hack' has obscured by writing a third rate keyboard part to create the illusion that it was meant to be a sonata.

It is not a sonata in any meaningful sense. It is mysterious. That Beethoven may have written most of the flute part cannot (in my view) be ruled out. That he, Beethoven, wrote most of the keyboard part seems to me false.

Robert, as I mentioned in my email to you, the sonata is a 4 movement piece in typical format - the present movement, a slow, a scherzo and variations as finale - not typical concerto fodder by the late 1790s. The style is consistant throughout. This strikes me as a genuine sonata. The only unusal factor is that the piano part sounds rather basic compared to the flute's. The variation theme is not treated in B's usual sparce manner. Either way neither part sounds remotely like anying I have in my Beethoven collection.

You might as well say Beethoven MAY have written ANY anonymous composition found from Bonn or Vienna at that time. For the others will sound no less like Beethoven than this sonata.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-25-2006).]