Beethoven and his early works at Bonn

[robert newman]

The 2nd Edition of the 'New Groves Dictionary of Music and Musicians' (in its list of works atrributed to Beethoven) has an entry bearing no reference for (and I quote) -

'Sonata for Flute ?' 1790-2

Conscious as we both are of the difference between sonatas and cantatas and aware that this piece is even questioned as being a sonata by Groves made me name it among many others yesterday as a possible candidate worthy for study. That remains my view.

I repeat my statement given early that I have seen a source that the cantata performed for Joseph 2nd at Frankfurt in 1790 bore the name of the opening lines of WoO87 - something I distinctly recall saying in posts of yesterday. But yes, I will try to find confirmation of this when I am able and will post the source (previously held on file) if and when I obtain it again.

Regards

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by robert newman:

As to Bonn (the second musical chapel in importance to Vienna in the whole Empire in 1790)

Why do you think so?

Marek

[Fidelio]

A little more weight to the argument that Beethoven did indeed compose the Joseph II Cantata (WoO 87) to a text by Severin Anton Averdonk is that he was the brother of the contralto Johanna Helene Averdonk. She was a pupil of Beethoven's father, who presented her to the public at the same concert at Cologne on 26 March 1778 at which the young Ludwig made his own debut as a performer. She remained on very friendly terms with the Beethoven family as she was godmother to the fifth son, Franz Georg. Would you not think that Averdonk prefered Beethoven to set the music.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Marek Krukowski:
Why do you think so?

Marek

Good point and according to George Marek (any connection?!!)

"Bonn was a small town. It pretended to the graces of Paris, to the self-importance of Berlin, and to the ceremonial splendour of papal Rome. It succeeded in being none of these. It was really just a provincial town which gave itself airs because it was the seat of a prince of the church and the capital of a small land called the 'Electorate of Cologne', one of the many states that made up the holy Roman Empire."

The Holy Roman Emperors were crowned at Frankfurt in the Electorship of Mainz, not Cologne. Wikipedia states "From the time of Willigis until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806, the Archbishops of Mainz were archchancellors of the Empire and the most important of the seven Electors of the German emperor."

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Bonn was more than just a backwater. It was the seat of an Elector of the Empire who was brother to both Emperor Joseph 2nd and Emperor Leopold 2nd. It's status on that fact alone is surely undeniable. It was the site of an ancient Roman garrison town and had always been of great importance, historically.

And Bonn (on historical grounds) was considered important enough to be suitable as the capital of former West Germany.

Sources which praised Bonn's musical revival by 1782 onwards (a revival which included a very busy theatre troupe which travelled extensively in Germany)include JN Forkel's 'Musical Almanac' (1782) pp.129.

Forkel rates Bonn third in its productions by that date -

1. Mannheim
2. Mainz
3. Bonn
4. Schaumburg-Lippe (Buckeburg)
5. Imperial Choir of Vienna
6. Stuttgart

Finally, in the Review of 'Records International Catalogue' by Ernst Mielck of a recording made in 1999 of Andrea Luchesi's '6 Sonatas for Piano and Violin Obligato', Op.1
Mielck writes -

'A remarkable find. Luchesi was maestro di cappelle at the same court where Beethoven's grandfather had been in charge and the young Beethoven spent much time with Luchesi in the court musical activities. How startling to find 'Beethovenian' characteristics sprinkled here and there in Luchesi's sonatas - years before Beethoven's first works....'

It is clear that, even stylistically, Beethoven owes as much to his Bonn Kapellmeister as to any other composer of his youth.

Maria Grazia Baiocchi (Piano)
Carlos Garfias (Violin)


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-24-2006).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:
Bonn was more than just a backwater. It was the seat of an Elector of the Empire who was brother to both Emperor Joseph 2nd and Emperor Leopold 2nd. It's status on that fact alone is surely undeniable. It was the site of an ancient Roman garrison town and had always been of great importance, historically.

Yes I'd agree it was certainly more than a backwater, Marek perhaps being too fanciful.

And Bonn (on historical grounds) was considered important enough to be suitable as the capital of former West Germany.


From Wikipedia
"The choice of Bonn was made mainly due to the advocacy of Konrad Adenauer, a former Cologne Mayor and Chancellor of West Germany after World War II, who came from that area, despite the fact that Frankfurt had most of the needed facilities already and using Bonn was estimated to be 95 Mill DM more expensive than using Frankfurt. Because of its relatively small size for a capital city, Bonn was sometimes referred to, jokingly, as the Bundesdorf (Federal Village)."

Sources which praised Bonn's musical revival by 1782 onwards (a revival which included a very busy theatre troupe which travelled extensively in Germany)include JN Forkel's 'Musical Almanac' (1782) pp.129.

Forkel rates Bonn third in its productions by that date -

1. Mannheim
2. Mainz
3. Bonn
4. Schaumburg-Lippe (Buckeburg)
5. Imperial Choir of Vienna
6. Stuttgart



Well that at least ackowledges the greater importance of Mainz and Mannheim, which is slightly different to your oft repeated assertion that Bonn was second only to Vienna.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Peter,

This information on the status of different musical centres varied from year to year amd was the considered opinion of Forkel himself. So it's not set in stone, of course, and was his view in the year previously. Whether it was second or third, the high status that Bonn had obtained (after its years when it had to sell off its own music archives and had a non-effective administation) were clearly over by the early 1780's - which was really the point.

(I might also note that despite considerable money being spent at Esterhazy during the time when Haydn was involved there it as a music centre does not get a mention by Forkel until the year following and then only in lukewarm terms as an appendix).

Mannheim was ranked first at this time for the year in question but this is because the Elector there (rather than the school of the new Tonschule of Abbe Vogler) was based there until its transfer with the Electors own administration and orchestra to Munich in late 1783. (This is why it is so unusual that Beethoven has his Dressler variations published at Mannheim around these years and I would like to find out whether this was done with the direct assistance of Vogler - which seems to be the case - or instead of the Electoral office. Either way Mannheim, strategically, was a centre for former Jesuit directors of music who had yielded great authority in music circles within the Empire prior to the official Jesuit dissolution in the 1770's and who continued to pull strings well in to the early 1800's). It is clear that Beethoven, in his early years in Vienna was going by the 'establishment' route (of which this publication of the Dressler Variations at Mannheim seems to be one example, but also by patronage by Lichnowsky, association with Haydn, etc. etc. We know of course that Beethoven broke free of all this.

Rgds

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-24-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Peter,

(This is why it is so unusual that Beethoven has his Dressler variations published at Mannheim around these years and I would like to find out whether this was done with the direct assistance of Vogler - which seems to be the case - or instead of the Electoral office.

Vogler was in Paris in 1783, having left Mannhein probably in 1781. Travellng widely in the east he didn't return to Europe until 1786.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Robert I look forward to your assessment of the flute sonata in the appropriate chain.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Peter,

You write -

'Vogler was in Paris in 1783, having left Mannhein probably in 1781'.

Yes, certainly. But you then write -

'Travellng widely in the east he didn't return to Europe until 1786'.

Well Peter, you'd surprised how many skins are on the onion that is Abbe Georg Vogler. In point of fact Vogler's life between 1783 (Paris) and 1786 included the following undoubtedly European events -

When Carl Theodor succeeded Maximilian II as Elector of Bavaria, he moved his court and orchestra to Munich. Vogler remained behind in Mannheim, continuing with promotion of a compositional/theoretical system of music that eventually had great success within the Catholic church world. In 1784 the Elector (now newly based with the entire court music administration in Munich summoned Vogler to Munich and promoted him to the rank of Kapellmeister. (In the end Vogler obtained the position that Mozart had wanted from the Elector during his visits to Mannheim). Vogler did take a series of 'concert tours' in 1785 (these to obscure much else that he did) that took him to places such as Stockholm. It was there in 1786 that he was named acting Kapellmeister and promptly resigned his post in Munich.

Regards


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-24-2006).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:
Peter,

You write -

'Vogler was in Paris in 1783, having left Mannhein probably in 1781'.

Yes, certainly.


Well that's the important bit, he wasn't in Mannheim to oversee the publication of the Dressler variations as you suggested.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-24-2006).]

[robert newman]

My suggestion is based on many things. First, the fact that the year 1783 had 365 days and not all of these were spent by Vogler in Paris. Second, that publication in Mannheim of the Beethoven 'Dressler Variations' during 1783 presupposes their arrival prior to the date when they were published. And thirdly, Vogler may well have been involved in arranging for these variations to be published, seeing that, at the time, he was a leading figure in music with a school there, a base there, and with a post that still served the Elector recently based there.

The main question is of course who arranged for these Variations to be published and whether it involved Vogler. I believe there is a strong possibility that it did. I base this on many other sorts of evidence, not least, the relationship between Vogler and Beethoven. But it will certainly be interesting to see what is known or what may be discovered as to how these variations came to be published at Mannheim that year. The death of the old Elector in 1783 at Bonn may be one obvious reason why Mannheim became a reasonable suggestion. This could be a very intesting subject for study.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

My suggestion is based on many things. First, the fact that the year 1783 had 365 days and not all of these were spent by Vogler in Paris. Second, that publication in Mannheim of the Beethoven 'Dressler Variations' during 1783 presupposes their arrival prior to the date when they were published. And thirdly, Vogler may well have been involved in arranging for these variations to be published, seeing that, at the time, he was a leading figure in music with a school there, a base there, and with a post that still served the Elector recently based there.

The main question is of course who arranged for these Variations to be published and whether it involved Vogler. I believe there is a strong possibility that it did. I base this on many other sorts of evidence, not least, the relationship between Vogler and Beethoven. But it will certainly be interesting to see what is known or what may be discovered as to how these variations came to be published at Mannheim that year. The death of the old Elector in 1783 at Bonn may be one obvious reason why Mannheim became a reasonable suggestion. This could be a very intesting subject for study.

There is no mystery or Vogler connection with the publication of the Dressler Variations. Neefe makes it quite clear that he arranged their publication - evidence backed up by the fact that Neefe’s only piano concerto had been published one year before (1781) by the same Mannheim publisher Götz.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

You say there is no Vogler connection between Beethoven and publication in Mannheim of the Dressler Variations during 1783. No connection has yet been shown, for sure. There is no known connection, for sure.

I will see if there is a known connection between Vogler and the Mannheim publisher.

p.s. There is a connection between Vogler and the Mannheim publisher Graz. But it's like moves in chess 3 steps ahead and I will mention it only in passing. It was Graz at Mannheim who published works by Bocherini (e.g. Sonatas for Boccherini for Violin and Harpsichord were published 'chez Gotz et Compagnie in 1772 at Mannheim. And Carpani and other sources speak of Boccherini being one of the sources for 'Haydn' symphonies besides Sammartini in that decade - this later involving Vogler. But this is too abstract. I will keep you posted on this question of the Dressler Variations and possible links to Vogler).

(Schiller was of course having early plays performed at Mannheim in 1782/3).



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-24-2006).]