Beethoven and his early works at Bonn

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Peter, yes, certainly, when we identify the composer of the works for Frankfurt we identify the composer of WoO87 and also WoO88.

At present the 'status quo' tells us that WoO87 was composed for Frankfurt by Ludwig van Beethoven, having been commissioned to do so by the Bonn Reading Society - a version so ridiculous as to make any fair minded person marvel that this version can have been believed for so long.

The status quo for me is that Beethoven composed these works. Ultimately that is the alpha and the omega. Like the piano quartets which you have questioned, the music is blatantly Beethovenian, and I'm sure Beethoven would not have borrowed the most memorable theme in Fidelio from the likes of Luchesi or some other unknown. The Luchesi track I copied from you that was contemporary with Beethoven at this time sounded nothing like Beethoven whatsoever.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Rod, you write -

'Whatever nail it is refers to the status quo Robert, ie these pieces being Beethoven's, whether they are a single cantata or double. If you will some day agree with that then I have hit a very tough nail. About alleged tiny fragment's of other all but nonexistant works I am not interested, even if they are Beethoven's'.

Fine. But I know for sure a Beethoven work exists that is neither Wo87 nor Wo088 and which was described as a 'sonata' by Bonn Reading Society and also shown to Haydn. I also know that it was deemed to be unplayable by no less than 3 contemporary witnesses. The available evidence of the existence of such a work is therefore compelling on those grounds alone. And many other lines of evidence point to its existence also - not least the very existence of the Biamonti sketches. These clearly not WoO88 though they allude to it and are explained by their relation to it.

You then write -

'In any case I get the impression you are more interested in the chase than the catch Robert'.

Well Rod, I assure you that this is not true. I am not only interested in identifying a work of Beethoven previously not suspected but also (as I hope to soon show - beyond reasonable doubt) that it has survived and may yet be revived almost whole. Such a 'catch' would be the best answer to your criticism.

But you will allow the fact that a chase must necessarily precede a catch rather than vice-versa. And on this aspect I have not been idle in the past 12 hours. I have scanned the known works of Beethoven to see if, just perhaps, there is a solution to be found in a work which, till this date, has not been recognised as vitally important - one that could finally fit all the pieces of the puzzle.

Among the candidates (and there are several) I note with some interest a work that is given no number in the New Groves -

Sonata in B Flat (For Flute ?) c.1790-1792 (published Leipzig 1906) listed as Anhang 4 in Kinsky and Helm (1955). Interestingly, this 'sonata' (the word also used by the unsigned memo of the Bonn Reading Society) was found amongst Beethoven's papers after his death (along with the 'cadenza-like' work supposed to come from WoO88. At present its authenticity is 'not yet certainly Beethoven's'.

So Rod, while this 'flute sonata' may prove to be nothing significant you can see that I will not let this go until I have searched every available possibility. And in searching one may (who knows ?) find what one is looking for.

Regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Among the candidates (and there are several) I note with some interest a work that is given no number in the New Groves -

Sonata in B Flat (For Flute ?) c.1790-1792 (published Leipzig 1906) listed as Anhang 4 in Kinsky and Helm (1955). Interestingly, this 'sonata' (the word also used by the unsigned memo of the Bonn Reading Society) was found amongst Beethoven's papers after his death (along with the 'cadenza-like' work supposed to come from WoO88. At present its authenticity is 'not yet certainly Beethoven's'.

So Rod, while this 'flute sonata' may prove to be nothing significant you can see that I will not let this go until I have searched every available possibility. And in searching one may (who knows ?) find what one is looking for.

Regards

You may not be surprised that I have a recording of the 'Flute Sonata'. I would say it is not his based on this recording. I can post a WMA from it here if you like.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-22-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Peter, yes, certainly, when we identify the composer of the works for Frankfurt we identify the composer of WoO87 and also WoO88.

At present the 'status quo' tells us that WoO87 was composed for Frankfurt by Ludwig van Beethoven, having been commissioned to do so by the Bonn Reading Society - a version so ridiculous as to make any fair minded person marvel that this version can have been believed for so long.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

I wouldn't claim they were commissioned for Frankfurt, only that Beethoven was asked by the reading society to provide music for Averdonk's text and here at least I think we agree.

You still haven't answered the point about evidence for Luchesi being asked to write the music. Were all Kapellmeisters in the Holy Roman Empire required to compose cantatas for Frankfurt which in anycase was in the archbishopship of Mainz, not Bonn?The kapellmeister was Righini and he provided a mass. We also know that Leopold brought the court musicians from Vienna with him, including Salieri who provided ceremonial music.

In the Leopold cantata there is a direct quotation from Schiller's "Ode to Joy" "Stürzt ihr nieder, Millionen? (Do you bow down, millions?)" which borders on dangerously subversive in the context of the times, and one wonders if Luchesi would have done such a thing?

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Thanks Rod. The fact that this 'flute' sonata is said to date from the period in question 1790/1) and that it was amongst Beethoven's papers at the time of his death together with the Biamonti fragments said to be from 'Beethoven's' WoO88 are enough for it to be very interesting, for sure. Yes, I would appreciate anything you can kindly provide of it. I note you doubt whether it's Beethoven's music in the first place.

I might just mention that amongst a list of possible candidates that I drew up from Groves (for different reasons) are the following works. They may all be irrelevant, of course -

WoO4 (supposedly from 1784 but of interest because it survives only in pf score with orchestral cues in solo part).

Hess 13 'Romance' (because it is arranged for chamber musicians, flute, bassoon and orchestral fragments - not too far from the Biamonti fragments.

WoO47 - 3 Sontatas from '1783' because although dedicated to Max Friedrich (who died long before) I cannot rule out error in the history of these works. One of them in F Minor.

WoO89 - Aria (Bass Solo) - Unlikely but possible.

WoO92 - Soprano Solo (c.1792?)

WoO91 - Two arias of uncertain date for 'Die schone Schusterin'

WoO110 - Elegie (c.1790)

WoO103 - Cantata campastra 'un liato brindisi (Abbate Clemente Bondi) for Soprano and 2 Tenors, Bass and Piano though normally dated around 1814

WoO38 - Piano Trio in B Flat (c.1791?) because published Frankfurt 1800 (date of composition derived from early catalogue of works).

Op.1 Trios (?)

WoOO50 Sonata in 2 Movements (1790-2?) Facsimile published 1909.

If the text to WoO87 can be accomodated within any of the above works it would be significant, of course.

But I am no expert in this area. I do not speak German and have only a copy of the text of WoO87 and WoO88.

Rgds


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

[robert newman]

Yes Peter, the connection with a work for the Bonn Reading Society (supported by the unsigned memo of 4 months later) seems OK (assuming of course that the unsigned memo is not a red herring).

But Groves and other authorities are emphatic about these two cantatas WoO87 and WoO88 both featuring in the official state music. I do not know on what basis this is stated. I can only assume that this information comes from Frankfurt. The only information I have on that point comes from Taboga. He says the name of the cantata for Joseph performed at Frankfurt is the very same as the first lines of WoO87.

As far as Kapellmeisters providing music on the death of Joseph and on the accession of Leopold, it seems that they did so as a mark of official protocol. So that work from Bonn chapel and elsewhere all featured in those events at Frankfurt, as did music from Vienna and elsewhere. But here I am assuming, for sure.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Peter, yes, certainly, when we identify the composer of the works for Frankfurt we identify the composer of WoO87 and also WoO88.

At present the 'status quo' tells us that WoO87 was composed for Frankfurt by Ludwig van Beethoven, having been commissioned to do so by the Bonn Reading Society - a version so ridiculous as to make any fair minded person marvel that this version can have been believed for so long.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

Dear Forum;

I have written to Mr. Zimmer (whom I consider a friend) of the Unheard Beethoven Site to join the dicsussion. If I recall, he once was a member of this forum. Hopefully, he will respond and will shed light on this matter.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:


The Biamonti fragments may be far more than a single 'cadenza'. They are understandable once the presently missing Bonn Reading Society 'sonata' is first rediscovered amongst early keyboard works of Beethoven.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

The use of the word sonata is clearly a mistake as I can find no reference to any vocal work that uses the term. Sonata clearly means instrumental as opposed to cantata meaning sung. Since the note refers to Beethoven setting a text it clearly was a sung work from the very beginning.

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'Man know thyself'

[gardibolt]

Robert,

Are you a wind musician? By what evidence are you claiming that there is nothing difficult in these cantatas WoO 87 and 88 for a wind musician? For that matter, what evidence do you have of the technical proficiency of the wind musicians at Mergentheim in 1791? Recall for starters that the horn of 1791 was much more difficult to play than the modern horn. One cannot make an assessment of the difficulty of the horn part from the perspective of a modern horn player. Recall too that the court musicians included dissolute drunkards such as Papa Beethoven. It's not a huge leap to suggest that Beethoven's disgust at the skill level of these musicians may be expressed in the self-pitying musical joke he wrote at the bottom of the cello part to Biamonti 16 (SBH 705), "The Poor Composer" (Biamonti 15). I'm not making a statement one way or the other about the difficulty of the wind parts, you understand; I am however suggesting that your assertion that there is nothing difficult in these cantatas, or more importantly, the necessary implication that the Mergentheim musicians were quite capable of playing them, is entirely unsupported. You need more proof than a mere hand-waving declaration, especially when it forms the cornerstone of your position that the composition that was abortively to be performed at Mergentheim cannot have been WoO 87 or 88.

The Kafka Miscellany (published 1970 by the British Library and readily available at most music libraries) also contains sketches by Beethoven that use the theme of the Aria from WoO 88, so there is a clear connection between this work and Beethoven. This is quite apparent if you compare the two compositions, right down to the key signature. Do you read music? This discussion will make a lot more sense to you if you actually look at the scores and the sketches.

On the other hand I know of no such sketches related in any way to WoO 87 and 88 by Luchesi, nor any ms. for these cantatas in his hand. If you know of such material, please produce it for consideration.

A simple application of Occam's Razor places the evidence strongly on Beethoven's side, with no need to create a third cantata out of thin air, and so far as I see Luchesi has nothing whatsoever on his side besides a title. For that matter, in connection with that title there seems to be a curious absence of evidence: If Luchesi had written a set of cantatas as part of his official duties, those compositions should show up in the Elector's records. Large-scale works composed by the Elector's Kapellmeister for such an important state occasion surely would not pass without reference. But I see nothing in your argument indicating there are any such records of Luchesi composing a set of cantatas in honor of the emperors as part of his official duties. Have you examined the Elector's records? Who does the inventory in Modena, C53.1, claim was the author of these cantatas? Or were they not in the Elector's collection at all---surely unusual to say the least if they were written by the Kapellmeister for a state occasion in the relevant period of 1784-1794? The fact there doesn't seem to be any mention of them points away from Luchesi, not towards him. I'd like to see a copy of C53.1 for my own purposes, if Mr Taboga can provide one. In such matters it is always better to deal with the original documents themselves.

The Biamonti 16 material in Bonn (the cello part) and London (the oboe part) is clearly in the form of a cadenza--it begins on a fermata and ends on a fermata with a trill and suspension, not a resolution---and there is a spot in the aria to WoO 88 that is quite traditionally appropriate for a cadenza, and finally, Biamonti 16 plainly uses the theme to the aria as the basis of the cadenza, as a good cadenza-writer would naturally do. What more evidence do you need that this represents a cadenza to WoO 88's aria? And these are not sketches; they're very neatly written out parts, obviously intended for performance, as opposed to full scores. It's quite apparent from a quick glance alone that Beethoven considered these cadenza parts finished and ready to play.

As I've said here before, while Beethoven's authorship of these cantatas isn't ironclad (though I believe his authorship of the Biamonti 16 cadenza to WoO 88 is indisuptable at the very least), to my knowledge he is the only person that there is any evidence in favor of.

For PDG, the Biamonti nos. for WoO 87 and 88 are Biamonti 17 and 18, respectively.

---Mark Zimmer

[gardibolt]

Robert,

You also asked why I suggested that the cadenza Biamonti 16 might have been written later than WoO 88. The answer is simple: the cadenza is not integrated within the work itself.

In performance practice, where there is a spot for a cadenza, as there is in the aria to WoO 88 (though not expressly marked as such on the ms., a fermata near the end on a suspension such as appears there would have naturally been taken as an opportunity for a cadenza) the soloist would most typically start with the main theme and vary it using technical virtuosity. But in the case of the aria to WoO 88, there were several soloists, including a cello and a soprano. Letting them go on their own could have disastrous results.

So for the 1791 Mergentheim performance (the only known occasion where these cantatas were to have been performed, I might add), Beethoven may well have set about writing a concerted cadenza for the soloists in the aria. Or they may have just asked him for a written-out cadenza.

This is of course entirely conjecture, but it fits the facts reasonably well.

---Mark Zimmer

[Rod]

Originally posted by gardibolt:
Robert,

Are you a wind musician? By what evidence are you claiming that there is nothing difficult in these cantatas WoO 87 and 88 for a wind musician?

---Mark Zimmer

Don't ask these questions, I've made the same point many times and he just ignores it. For some reason he thinks these Cantatas are music for amateurs.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Dear Mark Zimmer,

Thank you for your contribution. In reply to your question of whether I understand the technicalities of wind instruments I must answer that I certainly do.

Now, given the issues you raise, and the fact that you discount 3 different individual sources (all of which say that the cantata written by Beethoven was deemed to be unplayable), and the fact that we are yet to get to this issue of the Bonn Reading Society and the actual official events at Frankfurt (with no obvious logic to suggest that Bonn was the stimulus for WoO87 and also WoO88) it seems to me reasonable that I should answer your posts on a point by point basis.

You argue that the writing of cadenza-like material in the year following the death of Joseph and that of the accession of Leopold 2nd is explainable if we understand the technicalities of what was occurring in Wo088. May I differ by suggesting that we go one step backwards ? What possible reason would Beethoven, in 1791 (the year after Frankfurt) have had to work on either of these two cantatas ?? For, unless he had in mind a project in 1791 which used that material the rest of these issues become an irrelevancy. I must therefore conclude that in 1791 (as you yourself suggest) there was a reason why Beethoven worked as he did on that material. And the reason why he was working on it is simple - he was attempting to write a work that was neither WoO87 nor WoO88 yet was related to it by its reference to the latter. In short, a work of his own composition that used the earlier cantata he wrote and also that material which you assume is part of WoO88 itself.

But I will argue this is more detail shortly.

Best regards



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


You argue that the writing of cadenza-like material in the year following the death of Joseph and that of the accession of Leopold 2nd is explainable if we understand the technicalities of what was occurring in Wo088. May I differ by suggesting that we go one step backwards ? What possible reason would Beethoven, in 1791 (the year after Frankfurt) have had to work on either of these two cantatas ?? For, unless he had in mind a project in 1791 which used that material the rest of these issues become an irrelevancy. I must therefore conclude that in 1791 (as you yourself suggest) there was a reason why Beethoven worked as he did on that material. And the reason why he was working on it is simple - he was attempting to write a work that was neither WoO87 nor WoO88 yet was related to it by its reference to the latter. In short, a work of his own composition that used the earlier cantata he wrote and also that material which you assume is part of WoO88 itself.

But I will argue this is more detail shortly.

Forget the non-existant work, what if anything have you further to add about the ownership status of WoO87/88 and the other pieces? It is the existing traditionally accepted music that is the one and only issue here. You have had nothing from day one, not one word you have written would stand up in any court.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-22-2006).]

[gardibolt]

Originally posted by robert newman:
[B]What possible reason would Beethoven, in 1791 (the year after Frankfurt) have had to work on either of these two cantatas ??

A projected performance in Mergentheim in 1791, as testified to by Wegeler and Simrock, for one. While the mourning cantata might no longer be appropriate to perform in 1791, reigning monarchs always like to have their reign celebrated and so WoO 88 would be more than welcome. Beethoven returned to completed compositions in the 1790s on several occasions, so that was not entirely unusual. He reworked both of the Concerti Nrs 1 and 2 substantially after they had been completed and publicly performed. The same goes for op. 103/op.4.

And as I pointed out, it's entirely possible that the performers at Mergentheim asked him for a written-out cadenza.

Frankfurt is rather beside the point; there's no evidence I'm aware of that these particular cantatas were performed there, regardless of their authorship. There were a lot of composers active in the Empire, to say the least, and any number of them could have written the cantata that was apparently performed there.

For the curious, a digital version of SBH 705, containing Biamonti 15 and 16 and a great deal of other material is online. http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...hoven&_seite=1

[watch for wrap in the URL]

--Mark Zimmer

[This message has been edited by gardibolt (edited 08-22-2006).]

[Rod]

Quite franky anyone who has to rely on circumstantial and anecdotal evidence to make a judgment of musical ownership at this level really shouldn't be here. Just give me any recording, even a bad one, and I can tell you if Beethoven wrote it or not. Trust me Robert, trust me...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin