Beethoven and his early works at Bonn

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:

We've all given up I'm sure that you will ever present proof beyond any doubt that Luchesi was the composer of these cantatas.

I've not given up. It may be a lost cause but let the guy finish his assertions. I'm not even sure he is saying that Lucchesi is definitely the composer?

With regard to Beethoven's other Bonn compositions you keep harping on about the Bonn records...

Steady on, Peter. "Harping on about..." shows frustration on your part, and as Admin Guy (well, you know.....).

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I am very familiar with them, and I know why you ask! For me, they are forward of their time, even for Beethoven. However, Robert is under bombardment as though he is questioning The Bible, and I feel that, if nothing else, due to his posting industry alone, he should not be dismissed without some sort of sympathetic leaning. I await the Biamonti numbers.

It is Beethoven's reputation that is under bombardment. Robert knew full well what he was getting into here by starting this thread having been through it before! I'm just curious why you're so keen for these works not to be Beethoven's?

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-21-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I am very familiar with them, and I know why you ask! For me, they are forward of their time, even for Beethoven. However, Robert is under bombardment as though he is questioning The Bible, and I feel that, if nothing else, due to his posting industry alone, he should not be dismissed without some sort of sympathetic leaning. I await the Biamonti numbers.

I ask you for the simple reason that anyone who knows anything about Beethoven's music and hears these pieces would have no doubt they are his. Supporting historical or anecdotale evidence is not even required.

I don't even care about the 'Biamonti numbers' whether they are Beethoven's or otherwise. It is the ownership of virually all of the principle works we know from Beethoven's youth wherby Robert is questioning ownership that I am concerned with.

Robert is under bombardment not only because of Beethoven's reputation as Peter says, but because Robert keeps bringing up the same unsubstantiated claims time and time again. You will notice Robert's theories never rely on musical stylistic evidence, which is usually the first thing I would look for. Believe me Luchesi from what I have heard is not worthy of these canatas which, far from what Robert would have us believe, are far from amateur pieces and would require a fair amount of ability from the orchestra and director relative to the usual junk I suspect they were used to, maybe some of it Luchesi's.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-21-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm just curious why you're so keen for these works not to be Beethoven's?

When did I state that? That's an inflamatory question. I know these works are by Beethoven, but Robert is being treated (with ever-increasing gusto) like a fool by you (while even Rod is trying to be restrained in this respect!). If Robert is to run out of steam, it will happen anyway.

This may not be the place for Rob to raise these points, but if not here, then where? The world is not flat, yet the "expert" view was that it was, once upon a time...

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:


This may not be the place for Rob to raise these points, but if not here, then where? The world is not flat, yet the "expert" view was that it was, once upon a time...

He's raised these same allegations a thousand times already and each time he's been shot down in flames. There are simply no points to be raised about the ownership of this music, he might as well say the same of the 5th Symphony or the Moonlight Sonata! I'm beginning to think Peter's hunch was right, Rob is just have a big joke at our expence.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-21-2006).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Robert Robert Robert Robert Robert... (a heavy sigh, looks to the heavens)...

May I add another 'Robert'!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Joy:
May I add another 'Robert'!

No, Joy! 5 are quite enough, thank you...

[robert newman]

The 2 Cantatas that Beethoven Did Not Write

The still surviving Minutes of the Bonn Lesegesellschaft do NOT confirm what is generally believed. (Those who know German will be able to confirm this). They do NOT commission anyone to compose anything. This is a very important point. They are a motion set before the Bonn Reading Society, an idea, proposed some time after the death of the Emperor Joseph 2nd, later discussed and approved, which led, eventually, to certain things taking place that ran IN PARALLEL with the composition by the Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi of the two supposed ‘Beethoven’ cantatas Wo87 and Wo88. This sequence of events began shortly after receipt of news that the Emperor Joseph had died. It was suggested by the Bonn Society ‘someone’ within reach of the Lesegesellschaft (whether a Member or not, and ‘whether resident or foreigner’ might compose a work to honour the memory of the late Emperor Joseph 2nd.
Bonn received news of Joseph’s 2nds death on 24th February 1790. 4 days later (28th February 1790) E. Schneider such a proposal to the Lesegesellschaft that a memorial by them – i.e. by the Reading Society of Bonn, should also feature a Speech. But (Schneider ALSO suggested) ‘before or after this Speech a person could perform some music – ‘a cantata would have a beautiful effect’. And, having already available the funerary text from a local poet (S.Averdonk), Schneider further proposed again that ‘one of the best composer partners of our Society, or also a foreigner’ could be commissioned to supply such music’.
It’s at this point that Thayer states in his Beethoven biography (though nobody at the time is recorded as having suggested it at the Bonn Lesegesellschaft) that Beethoven was the most competent to do this job. Thus, this recorded opinion of Thayer (unsubstantiated in every single respect as regards the actual records of the Bonn society has, over time, tended to obscure the fact that at the time no particular composer was ever actually suggested. In fact (as already indicated) the proposal (still extant) clearly says the society would have gladly accepted a foreign composer. This is categorical proof that Ludwig van Beethoven was NOT immediately in the mind of the member of that Society – Schneider. Furthemore, THIS PROPOSAL, FROM A PRIVATE MEMBER OF A PRIVATE READING SOCIETY IN BONN HAS NO RELATIONSHIP EVER SHOWN BY ANYONE TO THE QUITE SEPARATE ISSUE OF THE COMPOSITION AND PERFORMANCE OF THE OFFICIAL FUNERAL CANTATA FOR FRANKFURT. There is not a shred of evidence that the Austrian Empire threw away its own protocol and rented Herr Schneider of the Bonn Reading Society to fish for a composer to a state cantata which they, the Austrian state, would normally have required its own state employees to provide. Such a fact is surely patently obvious.

It is perfectly true that a note belonging to the Bonn Reading Society exists dated 4 months later (16th June 1790) addressed to one Baron von Schall. The note is NOT signed by anyone. It simply says ‘Beethoven composed in memory of Joseph a sonata’. In relation to this indisputably Beethoven work we find on the website ‘Unknown Beethoven' an article wrongly entitled ‘Lost Cadenza to Leopold Cantata Wo88’). Its author, Mr Zimmer, has (quite wonderfully) provided us with a Midi file.

He asks readers to consider that perhaps this fragment (WoO88) dates from the year AFTER WoO88 was written. He also reminds us that Thayer describes both cantatas (WoO87 and also WoO88) as ‘the most interesting of Beethoven’s compositions at this period’. We are also rightly told this subject is ‘somewhat of a detective story’.
Go next to the passage in Mr Zimmer’s article that begins severak paragraphs down. It provides contemporary evidence from Franz Wegeler and I quote it as follows –
‘When Haydn first returned from England, a breakfast was given for him by the Electoral Orchestra in Godesburg, a resort near Bonn. On this occasion Beethoven showed him a cantata. Haydn examined it very closely and then warmly encouraged the composer to pursue his studies. Later this cantata was supposed to be performed in Mergentheim, BUT SEVERAL SECTIONS WERE SO DIFFICULT FOR THE WIND INSTRUMENTS THAT SOME MUSICIANS DECLARED THEY COULD NOT POSSIBLY PLAY THEM. AS A RESULT. THE PERFORMANCE WAS CANCELLED. AS FAR AS WE KNOW THIS CANTATA WAS NEVER PRINTED’.
I would also like to quote from the same article where another contemporary witness to these events, the Bonn publisher Simrock says –
‘I only remember that he wrote a cantata there which we did rehearse several times but did not perform in court. WE HAD ALL MANNER OF PROTESTS OVER THE DIFFICULT PLACES BEFORE US, AND HE ASSERTED THAT EACH PLAYER MUST BE ABLE TO PERFOM HIS PART CORRECTLY – WE PROVED WE COULDN’T, SIMPLY BECAUSE ALL THE FIGURES WERE COMPLETELY UNUSUAL – THEREIN LAY THE DIFFICULTY. FATHER REIS, WHO WAS THE ORCHESTRAL LEADER IN MERGENTHEIM DECLARED EARNESTLY THAT THIS WAS ALSO HIS OPINION, AND SO IT WAS NOT PERFORMED AT COURT, AND WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING MORE OF IT SINCE.;’
How much clearer can it possibly be ? These two separate witnesses are speaking of a work by Beethoven that was NEITHER WoO87 NOR WoO88. Note that in both these accounts this cantata is said to have presented formidable performance difficulties to those who tried to play it.
The fragments under discussion BELONG TO NEITHER WoO87 NOR WoO88 BUT ARE INSTEAD FROM A THIRD PIECE. A PIECE WRITTEN BY LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN – ONE HE WROTE FOR THE READING SOCIETY OF BONN, ONLT THESE FRAGMENTS OF WHICH HAVE SURVIVED. There is of course nothing in either WoO87 or Wo088 that could be considered so difficult that Wegeler says it was ‘so difficult for wind instruments that some musicians declared they could not possibly play them. Nor with Simrock who goes even further by saying, ‘ALL the figures were completely unusual, therein lay the difficulty. Father Reis, who was the leader in Mergentheim, declared earnestly that this was ALSO HIS OPINION’
Beethoven had with him at Mergentheim a third work, this being his very own – none other than a work written first for the Bonn Reading Society and drawing from the same text. It was THIS work of which the unsigned note from June is speaking when it says -
‘Beethoven composed in memory of Joseph a sonata’
This work, appears to have been a one movement work of possibly the sort that Beethoven would again use with the Choral Fantasy, with modest solo string and winds plus keyboard and perhaps one soprano vocalist (the voice entering in to the work near its end) and which was a technical challenge to all who were involved in its performance (possibly because of the virtuosity required by its players near its conclusion) and is therefore the one that is today wronglt assumed to be a fragment of WoO88. Again, no such description can possibly be used of the musical content of either WoO87 or Wo88.
Beethoven completed this work alone. He tried to have it rehearsed at Mergentheim (at the same time as he was involved in preparations for Wo88) but this work (proving too much of a challenge for anyone at Mergentheim and of course back in Bonn) has never been seen since. The great man kept only these fragments of such an ambitious project from his youth – one that appears never to have been realised. It was this same work that he showed later that year to Joseph Haydn. Again, entirely consistent with all of the above evidence.
The timetable suggests the work Beethoven wrote was both a memorial to Joseph 2nd and also a celebration of the accession of Leopold 2nd – this within a single work. And the fact these fragments indicate ‘cadenza-like’ material prove beyond reasonable doubt that they belong to this third, genuinely Beethoven and technically demanding work described as a cantata or as a 'sonata' by that unsigned memo.

Yes, of course WoO87 and WoO88 are works by the Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi. It is surely somewhat absurd that they should not always have been assumed to be his.


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

[robert newman]

The great influence of Luchesi on the young Beethoven is indisputable in the Bonn period. Listen, if you will, to the sonatas published in the early 1770’s at Bonn by Luchesi. -

1. Sonata for violin & keyboard in G major, Op.1/1
Composé par Andrea Lucchesi

2. Sonata for violin & keyboard in C major, Op.1/2
Composé par Andrea Lucchesi

3. Sonata for violin & keyboard in A major, Op.1/3
Composé par Andrea Lucchesi

4. Sonata for violin & keyboard in F major, Op.1/4
Composé par Andrea Lucchesi

5. Sonata for violin & keyboard in C major ("L'harmonique"), Op.1/5
Composé par Andrea Lucchesi

6. Sonata for violin & keyboard in D major, Op.1/6
Composé par Andrea Lucchesi

Link -
www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003A9LZ

And will you, just perhaps, agree that this is remarkable music, clearly anticipating Beethoven in many respects. Yet it is Luchesi and was written when Beethoven was not even 2 years old. It was also the first music ever published at Bonn. By the new incoming Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi. The same Luchesi who was Beethoven's true teacher of music and composition for virtually 10 years.

Regards

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

The timetable suggests the work Beethoven wrote was both a memorial to Joseph 2nd and also a celebration of the accession of Leopold 2nd – this within a single work.

It is interesting that you make this point, as I have said here many times in the past that I got the impression that the J & L cantatas as we know them were conceived as a single work - the L effectively has no beginning and its final chorus is if anything too grand relative to the size of the piece on its own.

If you can find new works belonging to Beethoven all well and good, but don't mess with these pieces (and the others), most of which contain material Beethoven used again later (ie the Joseph, the piano concerto and the piano quartets).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-22-2006).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:
Thus, this recorded opinion of Thayer (unsubstantiated in every single respect as regards the actual records of the Bonn society has, over time, tended to obscure the fact that at the time no particular composer was ever actually suggested. In fact (as already indicated) the proposal (still extant) clearly says the society would have gladly accepted a foreign composer. This is categorical proof that Ludwig van Beethoven was NOT immediately in the mind of the member of that Society – Schneider.

Nobody has ever claimed that the reading society immediately thought of Beethoven (they didn't think of Luchesi either) - that is irrelevant. The point is that they suggested a composer set Averdonk's text on the Death of Joseph.
Do you agree Beethoven wrote a cantata for the reading society and that he set Averdonk's text? You agree that WoO87 also sets Averdonk's text? Yes or no please. Do you consider that if Beethoven was Luchesi's pupil as you claim, that Luchesi would have been happy that his pupil was setting exactly the same text?

It is perfectly true that a note belonging to the Bonn Reading Society exists dated 4 months later (16th June 1790) addressed to one Baron von Schall. The note is NOT signed by anyone. It simply says ‘Beethoven composed in memory of Joseph a sonata’.

My understanding is that the note was by Baron Von Schall. In anycase you conveniently omit the most important bit - It says that Beethoven set Averdonk's text.

Yes, of course WoO87 and WoO88 are works by the Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi. It is surely somewhat absurd that they should not always have been assumed to be his.


Assumption is no evidence. The works are Beethoven's and that is not an assumption, but a verifiable fact. From the musical point alone, Brahms was correct in his assessment that the finger prints of Beethoven are all over these cantatas.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-22-2006).]

[robert newman]

You have hit the nail on the head here Rod !!

This complex problem seems capable of a simple solution along roughly the following lines -

1. Mr Zimmer at the 'Unknown Beethoven' website specifically suggests (and I quote in capital letters for emphasis) that -

PERHAPS THIS FRAGMENT (i.e. the Biamonti fragment that Mr Zimmer and others are assuming always belonged to WoO88) (actually) DATES FROM THE YEAR AFTER WoO88 WAS WRITTEN !!!!!!

Wow !!!

Now Rod, let Mr Zimmer be asked why that material may have been written the year AFTER official accession of the Emperor Leopold 2nd. Thus, written in 1791, and NOT in 1790. If so (and there must be reason why Mr Zimmer proposes this late date) it must surely be true that this Beethoven fragment does NOT belong with WoO88 (which was not his own work in the first place) BUT IS INSTEAD PART OF A WORK THAT BEETHOVEN CREATED AFTER OFFICIAL PERFORMANCE OF BOTH WoO87 AND WoO88 - NECESSARILY SO.

1. YES ROD, BEETHOVEN, AT SOME STAGE IN 1791 (I.E. LATER THAN PUBLIC PERFORMANCE OF BOTH WoO87 AND WoO88) ATTEMPTED TO CREATE A SINGLE WORK THAT USED A DEVICE OF HIS OWN INVENTION TO MARRY TOGETHER THE SINGLE MEMORIAL WORK HE HAD WRITTEN EARLIER FOR THE BONN READING SOCIETY (DESCRIBED BY THAT SOCIETY AS A 'SONATA') WITH ANOTHER WORK DEDICATED TO THE NEW EMPEROR LEOPOLD 2ND - THESE TWO THINGS COMBINED. THE DATE OF SUCH AN ATTEMPT WAS NECESSARILY 1791 AMD NOT 1790.

2. THEREFORE THE WORK WRITTEN FOR THE BONN READING SOCIETY (DESCRIBED AS MARKING JOSEPH'S DEATH) WAS THE MUSICAL BASIS FOR THE FIRST PART OF THIS AMBITIOUS PROJECT THAT BEETHOVEN UNDERTOOK THE FOLLOWING YEAR, 1791.

3a. BY BEETHOVEN ALLUDING TO WoO88 IN THE BIAMONTI FRAGMENTS WE ARE SEEING IN THOSE FRAGMENTS SONETHING QUITE ASTONISHING - A WORK THAT WOULD INDEED HAVE MARRIED TOGETHER A FUNERAL CANTATA FOR THE LATE JOSEPH 2ND (WHICH THE 'SONTATA' FOR BONN REPRESENTED IN EMBRYO) USED LATER IN A SINGLE BEETHOVEN WORK WITH A CANTATA THAT ALLUDES TO WoO88 FOR THE ACCESSION OF THE NEW EMPEROR LEOPOLD 2ND.

3b. That the above clues seem to indicate that there exists today, somewhere within early Beethoven keyboard sonatas a work that is capable of being described as that which he presented to the Bonn Reading Society as a memorial 'sonata' - a work that was, in fact, capable of being in its later orchestral/choral form a cantata for the death of Joseph 2nd. That form was reached by the time it was shown to Mergentheim and by the time it was shown to Joseph Haydn.

4. The Biamonti fragments take us a step further in this project, linking the memorial music with that he wrote for the accession of Leopold 2 - a cantata for Leopold's accession. And thus, the Biamonti fragments are Beethoven's own record of how this link between two different works was actually to be achieved at orchestral/choral level.

5. That Beethoven at Mergentheim (i.e. at the time of the official cantatas WoO87 and WoO88) had not yet completed this work but had completed only the first part - the translation of his Bonn 'sonata' to an orchestral version of WoO87. That is why it is described by Simrock and others as a 'cantata for Joseph'.

6. That the technically difficult nature of what Beethoven wrote (and what he had first submitted only as a sonata to the Bonn Reading Society) was obviously not yet the full work he had in mind by 1791.

7. And finally -

That the idea of a single work which is both a Beethoven version of the Joseph funeral cantata linked to an accession cantata for Leopold 2 by a 'cadenza-like' device so as to make a single work (this dating from 1791) is what these Biamonti fragments testify to.

(I do not know if there exists a single piano sonata in Beethoven's early ouput that could possibly accomodate the text used by Luchesi in the funeral cantaa WoO87. But if one can be identified this sonata would be, in keyboard form, the work that Beethoven presented to the Beethoven Reading Society - a funeral cantata in embryo that was, to that Society, at that time, a keyboard sonata.

I suggest careful analysis of the text of WoO87 must be made to see if any keyboard work from Bonn around this time fits such a text and vice versa. If one exists that could have been used as a Joseph memorial, we have rediscovered the first part of that Beethoven work which the Biamonti fragments link to the second part of his ambitious project.

In Beethoven's mind the second part of his project directly quotes from WoO88. That quotation appears to be a central feature of the second part of his plan.

And so, it seems, a single work by Beethoven was indeed in his mind by 1791 - the need for a memorial cantata making no sense by that date unless it was coupled with a work that dealt with the accession of Leopold - this notwithstanding the 'sonata' he presented to the Bonn Reading Society (part 1 of his project in embryo) and notwithstanding the known composition by him of an elaborate work seen by Haydn and others in 1790.

Thus, what the Bonn Reading Society received was as keyboard version of that which he showed to Haydn and others in 1790.

The Biamonti fragments may be far more than a single 'cadenza'. They are understandable once the presently missing Bonn Reading Society 'sonata' is first rediscovered amongst early keyboard works of Beethoven.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]

[Peter]

Out of all the Kapellmeisters in the Holy Roman Empire, what evidence is there that Luchesi was chosen to write official music for Frankfurt which came under the Elector of Mainz, not Bonn? The Kapellmeister there was Righini and we know that he wrote a Mass for the occasion.

Do records exist of the official music performed at Frankfurt? This would settle the matter once and for all, because if WoO87 and WoO88 were not performed, then Luchesi (according to you having been officially commissioned to write these works)wasn't the composer. Do you agree?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
You have hit the nail on the head here Rod !!

Have I? Whatever nail it is refers to the status quo Robert, ie these pieces being Beethoven's, whether they are a single cantata or double. If you will some day agree with that then I have hit a very tough nail. About alleged tiny fragment's of other all but nonexistant works I am not interested, even if they are Beethoven's. In any case I get the impression you are more interested in the chase than the catch Robert.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Peter, yes, certainly, when we identify the composer of the works for Frankfurt we identify the composer of WoO87 and also WoO88.

At present the 'status quo' tells us that WoO87 was composed for Frankfurt by Ludwig van Beethoven, having been commissioned to do so by the Bonn Reading Society - a version so ridiculous as to make any fair minded person marvel that this version can have been believed for so long.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-22-2006).]