Beethoven and his early works at Bonn

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
I see no problem here. The records at Boon show clearly that Beethoven had 3 works entered in the decade or so that he was there. Any argument ???? None. None possible.

That record is further confirmed/showed to be reasonable by correspondence between Haydn and Max Franz of 1793 - at which time Max Franz, the Elector, says Beethoven has written to date 5 works, only 2 of them since his arrival in Vienna. Any argument ? None. None possible.

Having 5 times said that Beethoven wrote other pieces (such as chamber pieces etc.) that were not included in the 1784 Inventory I do not see what possible problem there is here.

I repeat (for the fourth time) that I will accept works being externally published by Beethoven (such as the Dressler Variations at Manneheim etc) though this is a strange and not regular arrangement.

But the net result of all this MUST reduce the number of works attributed (still today) in various Beethoven lists as you must concede. Why ? Well, here is a partial list of 'Beethoven' works which are NOT Beethoven's -

1. The Cantata on the Death of Joseph
2. The Cantata on the Accession of Leopold
3. The Cressner Cantata

and various other chamber works added long after Beethoven's death (copies held at Bonn) which may have been chamber music by Luchesi, for all we know. Has Luchesi's name even been acknowledged in such studies. Hardly at all !!!

There are certainly works NOT contained within the records of Bonn - works that never have been there.

On these entirely reasonable grounds (and here I am talking of only 3 works at this time) we can say Beethoven's output at Bonn was less than many books still in print are telling us. Any dispute ? None possible.

Goodness, you cannot simply expect to attribute works to Beethoven decades after the composer's death (works he never once claimed to have written in his entire lifetime) and imagine they will remain solidly part of the Beethoven canon. The emphatic evidence from Bonn itself is on the side of those who say he, Beethoven, wrote more than those records show, (as agreed again) but that he did not write those 3 works listed above and others from Bonn we could discuss.

The net result is for a reasonable person to agree that the number of Beethoven works from Bonn is not increasing but is slightly decreasing in respect of AT LEAST 3 WORKS. No problem - just plain fact. Not a massive change. But a change nevertheless and one entirely justified by the actual evidence.

Yes, all the works you list are fine. They do not alter the Bonn records one iota. They were not relevant to the 1784 inventory and that inventory did not deal with chamber music.

And there still remains (as we all know) at least one alternative candidate for at least several of the chamber works from Bonn which have been attributed to Beethoven for well over a century. This too is plain fact. No argument.


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-21-2006).]

Oh Robert you go round in circles. It is not a plain fact that the chamber music attributed to Beethoven in Bonn is not his but Luchesi's. It is not a plain fact that he did not compose the Joseph and Leopold Cantatas.

Where is this evidence that Luchesi is the true composer of these works? All you can say is that it was the Kapellmeister duty to write such music or that Luchesi's music has gone missing. That is no eveidence at all.



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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

I wonder why these three works were attributed to Beethoven after his death? Can't be a Luchesi conspiracy here. And that Luchesi is without music during a period of time does not mean that he didn't write any.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I wonder why these three works were attributed to Beethoven after his death? Can't be a Luchesi conspiracy here. And that Luchesi is without music during a period of time does not mean that he didn't write any.

It was claimed by the 'cellist Bernhard Maurer (a British ambassador at Bonn from 1775 and member of the Electoral orchestra 1777-1780) that Beethoven wrote a cantata in memory of Cressener (1781) as he had been financially supportive to the family. Luchesi agreed to its rehearsal and it was performed at Bonn. This is the only evidence we have of such a work and it is unreliable because Maurer left Bonn before the events he describes.

Concerning the Joseph and leopold Cantatas, sketches in Beethoven's hands exist that clearly relate to the material in these works. A continuity sketch exists in the Kafka Miscellany, the finished oboe part, also contained in Kafka, and the finished cello part, held by Bonn. Also a sketch for the soprano aria. All quite indisputably in Beethoven's hand and in Beethoven's possession when he died.

Simrock and Wegeler both refer to Beethoven's involvement in the rehearsals of a cantata at Mergentheim 1791.

Beethoven reuses material from the Joseph cantata years later in his opera Leonore.

Nottebohm states that manuscript copies of these works were listed in the April 1813 auction catalogue of the library of Baron von Beine.

The letter by Clemens August von Schall of June 16th, 1790 refers to this work - "As far as the music is concerned, Beethoven has produced such a densely written sonata on the death of Joseph II - the text is by Averdonk - that it can only be performed here by a full orchestra or other similar body." Robert can argue all he likes about the use of the word sonata - however a sonata is clearly an instrumental work, whereas the letter makes it quite clear Beethoven set the text of Averdonk.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-21-2006).]

[robert newman]

At the risk of boring everyone let me repeat my assertion that the actual records of Bonn credit Beethoven with having composed 3 works there during his 10 years or so association with the chapel. There are certain people who do not like this fact. But it remains a fact. It is a fact that is further supported by the letter from Haydn to the Elector of Cologne written from Vienna in late 1793. Now, in addition to these works are others which were published externally - works we can accept or not on a case by case basis. That has so often been said here that I think nobody will disagree.

As regards certain works held at Bonn and attributed to Beethoven after his death, yes, it is fair and reasonable to say that these chamber works may be works by Beethoven, just as they may not be works by Beethoven. And since we are discussing here works from Bonn we must surely acknowledge that these works (the ones of uncertain authorship) may have been works composed by men other than Beethoven - which, to me, is not simply reasonable but essential if we are to have a fair discussion. I do not dogmatically insist that the two cantatas for the Emperors MUST be Beethoven's work. Indeed, I have given reasons here many times why they are actually NOT by Beethoven and why they were reasonably the work of Kapellemeister Andrea Luchesi.

Now, it seems to me that repetition of a a point does not make this business easier for me or anyone who reads it.

I repeat my view (given many times also) that Beethoven wrote a piece that was NOT the cantata traditionally attributed to him - q quite different piece - and was, in actual fact (not opinion) the first person to suggest this. This work (shown to Haydn) survives only in fragmentary form.

Now, regarding the other matters, I can only state again that Beethoven writers/textbooks have been asserting Beethoven's authorship of works from the Bonn period in at least these 3 cases (and probably more) where the actual evidence indicates at least two claimants to authorship of those same works. That remains the situation today. And if that simple fact is acknowledged perhaps we make some small progress on this issue.

I stand against NO evidence of any kind and am simply asking that appreciation is given to the fact that the lost compositions of the Kapellmeister at Bonn (who worked there between 1771 and dissolution of the chapel in 1794) MAY be the actual composer of works which, till now, have been at various times attributed to the young Ludwig van Beethoven.

To say all this is to say nothing more than what is fair, reasonable, and consistent with the actual evidence.

[robert newman]

Dear Sorrano,

Let us not talk of 'conspiracy' when, in fact, we are dealing here with simple facts.

The simple facts include (on the admission of everyone) the fact that works written at Bonn have been attributed to Beethoven which, we later learned, were not actually of his composition. On several occasions the supposed 'handwriting of Beethoven' has turned out NOT to be Beethoven's at all - and I can give several examples if you so require.

I am sure fair and reasonable Beethoven lovers will continue to agree (as they have always done) that question marks exist on many works that have in the past been attributed to the young Beethoven by those who claimed it decades after his death in respect of quite a number of Beethoven's supposed Bonn works.

If it is claimed that this work or that work is definitely by the 'young Beethoven' let it also be fair and reasonable to allow arguments to be made against such a view. But for as long as debate exists let dogmatism not rear its ugly head in such discussions. Let us compare notes and be both wiser. Let it first of all be appreciated that there are missing works at Bonn by a man, at that time, who had also written chamber music. Is this very difficult to accept ?





[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-21-2006).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:

At the risk of boring everyone let me repeat my assertion that the actual records of Bonn credit Beethoven with having composed 3 works there during his 10 years or so association with the chapel. There are certain people who do not like this fact. But it remains a fact. It is a fact that is further supported by the letter from Haydn to the Elector of Cologne written from Vienna in late 1793.


Firstly what relevance is this 'fact' when you yourself have admitted that the Bonn records do not tell the full story? Max Franz's response actually acknowledges 4 of the 5 mentioned works. What relevance is it when the Cantatas in question were in fact commisioned by the reading society not the Court Chapel?

I do not dogmatically insist that the two cantatas for the Emperors MUST be Beethoven's work. Indeed, I have given reasons here many times why they are actually NOT by Beethoven and why they were reasonably the work of Kapellemeister Andrea Luchesi.

No, you dogmatically insist they are Luchesi's work with no other evidence than 'it was the Kapellmeister's responsibilty to provide such music'. Well perhaps you will agree that the reading society commission did not automatically think of the Kappelmeister? They were in fact quite open to the possibilty of several composers and hadn't in fact decided when the idea was thought of.

I repeat my view (given many times also) that Beethoven wrote a piece that was NOT the cantata traditionally attributed to him - q quite different piece - and was, in actual fact (not opinion) the first person to suggest this. This work (shown to Haydn) survives only in fragmentary form.

Oh really - what is this fragment? Assuming you are right and Luchesi wrote a cantata for the occasion how do you know that his work wasn't lost? Since you at least now acknowledge Beethoven wrote a work for this occasion why do you assume that it is Beethoven's work that was lost?



To say all this is to say nothing more than what is fair, reasonable, and consistent with the actual evidence.

It is contrary to all available evidence




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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

1. There is not a shred of evidence that Beethoven was commissioned by the Bonn Reading Society to write the cantata attributed to him today for the death of Joseph or that for the accession of Leopold 2nd. It is disingenous for this myth to be given ad nauseum so repeatedly. It always has been disingenuous to say so. And it remains so today.

2. The work shown by Beethoven to Haydn definitely NOT either of the two cantatas so often attributed to Beethoven. The evidence is on this board and has been posted at length before. It is supported by several lines of contemporary evidence, none of which supports the view that the Bonn Reading Society commissioned either cantata of the two today attributed to Beethoven.

3. The Biamonti fragments are those which we are here refering to - these are the surviving fragments of the cantata that Beethoven DID write. A quite different work from those traditionally attributed to him and deemed to be unplayable by those who saw it. So say two contemporary witnesses.

Now, who is dogmatic here ?

[Rod]

Concerning the beethoven music in question I could offer counter arguments to everything you have written here Robert, but I won't as we have gone through this many times already. Your own position is totally unsubstantiated and regardless is refuted by the music itself. About alleged pieces of which nothing survives I have little interest.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-21-2006).]

[PDG]

What are the Biamonti numbers please, Robert. I'll listen to them and try and offer some support, but I fear your position may prove unsustainable.

[robert newman]

Dear PDG,

Yes, I will summarise the case for these two cantatas (the official funeral cantata for Joseph 2nd and the official accession cantata for Leopold 2nd) having not been written by Beethoven by this time tomorrow on this thread. At the same time I will again make (as concisely as I can) the case that Beethoven DID compose a separate (third) work, a cantata on the death of Joseph, and that Beethoven showed this sane work to Joseph Haydn in 1790 during their very first meeting - a work that was also deemed by two contemporary witnesses (including Simrock) to be 'unplayable' by the orchestra who were rehearsing for the main performance of the official funeral cantata.

The surviving fragments of this unappreciated Beethoven work include a quote from the official Frankfurt cantata but they are clearly a different work from that performed at Frankfurt. That is why I have suggested here before that Beethoven is not the composer of these two state/official cantatas. That honour belongs (of course) to the Kapellmeister at Bonn who, in the normal course of events, would have composed such works but who, for reasons that have yet to be explained, has been marginalised by textbook writers since the time of Beethoven's death in respect of these and virtually all other works he wrote during his 23 years of service to the Bonn chapel.

I have further suggested on this board (for perhaps the first time) that there exists in those fragments the remains of a work that, till now, has simply not been appreciated - a cantata that Beethoven definitely DID write for the Bonn Reading Society - a chamber work with solo voices and solo instruments - but whose very existence has of course been obscured by wrong assumptions.

For each and every work labelled as 'early Beethoven' other than those published externally there exists the plain fact that, in the official records of Bonn chapel (and entirely consistent with other evidence) that chapel recognised but 3 works from the young Beethoven prior to his arrival in Vienna. And therefore (I suggest) notwithstanding arguments about Bonn chamber music and works known to have been published externally (such as the Dressler Variations published at Manneheim) there exists a body of works which, till now, have had only one name traditionally attached to them, Beethoven's, though the case for him is no greater, in fact, that it is for the Kapellmeister of Bonn bimself, Andrea Luchesi. (And often less so).



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-21-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
What are the Biamonti numbers please, Robert. I'll listen to them and try and offer some support, but I fear your position may prove unsustainable.

Have you heard the Joseph and Leopold Cantatas?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:

1. There is not a shred of evidence that Beethoven was commissioned by the Bonn Reading Society to write the cantata attributed to him today for the death of Joseph or that for the accession of Leopold 2nd. It is disingenous for this myth to be given ad nauseum so repeatedly. It always has been disingenuous to say so. And it remains so today.

There is evidence that the reading society required a composer to set Averdonk's text. The meeting took place on Feb 28th and was presided over by Prof Eulogius Schneider. We know from the letter by Clemens August von Schall of June 16th, 1790 that Beethoven did indeed set this very text.


2. The work shown by Beethoven to Haydn definitely NOT either of the two cantatas so often attributed to Beethoven. The evidence is on this board and has been posted at length before. It is supported by several lines of contemporary evidence, none of which supports the view that the Bonn Reading Society commissioned either cantata of the two today attributed to Beethoven.

As usual you have posted no evidence at all, only your usual speculation and blind insistence on Luchesi. All you do is ignore the facts I present you with. We've all given up I'm sure that you will ever present proof beyond any doubt that Luchesi was the composer of these cantatas. It is impossible for you to do so because Beethoven was the composer of those works.

3. The Biamonti fragments are those which we are here refering to - these are the surviving fragments of the cantata that Beethoven DID write.

Why would Beethoven have written a cantata on the same text if Luchesi was doing this?

With regard to Beethoven's other Bonn compositions you keep harping on about the Bonn records, but we know they are incomplete anyway, so what on earth do they prove?


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-21-2006).]

[robert newman]

The surviving Minutes of the Bonn Reading Society (who had no track record of ever commissioning musical works) tells us that the proposal to have something written for the death of the Emperor Joseph might be 'a good idea'. No composer is named.

Now, how on earth is that private membership proposal to be interpreted as being the same things as the necessary, normal, official, state ceremony to commemorate the death of Joseph 2nd held at Frankfurt ? It is manifestly obvious that the death of Joseph was marked over the Empire in many ways. But the official cantata performed at Frankfurt was a state event and NOT this whimsical proposal recorded in the still surviving Minutes of the Bonn Reading Society.

On these simple grounds alone it is clear that the case for Beethoven writing or being commissioned by the Bonn Reading Society to compose the official cantata is simply unsustainable.

Such a job was NOT the impulse or idea of the Bonn Reading Society or any other private members society but was, of course, a matter of state protocol, dealt with in regular fashion through the Kapellmeister, he subject to the Elector of Cologne, Max Franz, and the Elector subject previously to his late brother Joseph the 2nd, subject now to his other brother, the new Emperor Leopold 2nd.

Beethoven DID write a work for the Bonn Reading Society, but not that which is today attributed to him. That was the job of Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-21-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
The surviving Minutes of the Bonn Reading Society (who had no track record of ever commissioning musical works) tells us that the proposal to have something written for the death of the Emperor Joseph might be 'a good idea'. No composer is named.

Now, how on earth is that private membership proposal to be interpreted as being the same things as the necessary, normal, official, state ceremony to commemorate the death of Joseph 2nd held at Frankfurt ? It is manifestly obvious that the death of Joseph was marked over the Empire in many ways. But the official cantata performed at Frankfurt was a state event and NOT this whimsical proposal recorded in the still surviving Minutes of the Bonn Reading Society.

On these simple grounds alone it is clear that the case for Beethoven writing or being commissioned by the Bonn Reading Society to compose the official cantata is simply unsustainable.

Such a job was NOT the impulse or idea of the Bonn Reading Society or any other private members society but was, of course, a matter of state protocol, dealt with in regular fashion through the Kapellmeister, he subject to the Elector of Cologne, Max Franz, and the Elector subject previously to his late brother Joseph the 2nd, subject now to his other brother, the new Emperor Leopold 2nd.

Beethoven DID write a work for the Bonn Reading Society, but not that which is today attributed to him. That was the job of Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-21-2006).]

Robert your argument is so muddled that I think you're having us all on. First you say that the Reading society did not commission a cantata from Beethoven, then you say he did write one for them anyway and coincidentally on exactly the same text by Averdonk used in WoO87.

Perhaps Luchesi did write another official cantata, there is no evidence, but it certainly was not WoO87 which on all available evidence is Beethoven's work.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Have you heard the Joseph and Leopold Cantatas?

I am very familiar with them, and I know why you ask! For me, they are forward of their time, even for Beethoven. However, Robert is under bombardment as though he is questioning The Bible, and I feel that, if nothing else, due to his posting industry alone, he should not be dismissed without some sort of sympathetic leaning. I await the Biamonti numbers.