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    Beethoven and his early works at Bonn

    Beethoven is credited, according to convention/tradition, with having composed quite a number of works during his youth in Bonn. Their exact number is a subject of still ongoing study/discussion/debate. This uncertainty is hardly surprising given a number of factors. First, that early devotees of Beethoven were (after his death in 1827) keen to attribute to him evidence of his precocious talent and to compare it (whenever it was seen possible) to that of Mozart. Second, of course, was the rise of the view (true or false) that German speaking composers and not external influences were to be credited with the great music now popular in German speaking lands – a view which, at times, lurched too far in one nationalistic direction as it had so often lurched in favour of the Italians in earlier times. (It's interesting to see the dates when individual Bonn works are first attributed to the youthful composer – many of them admitted in to the Beethoven canon decades after Beethoven’s death, and many (it must be repeated) never claimed as Beethoven’s by Beethoven himself during his lifetime. Having said this, it’s a perfectly fair question to ask what the available evidence from Bonn says of Beethoven’s compositional achievements up till he left to live and work in Vienna.

    Assisting us in our quest are several sorts of evidence (though much of it is fragmentary or incomplete, for sure) –

    1. Musical manuscripts
    2. Contemporary references/correspondence etc.
    3. Claims by others regarding authorship of the works in question
    4. The official records (if any) from Bonn chapel, where Beethoven studied and worked for the first 10 years or so of his musical life.

    But all the above information, though fragmentary and often incomplete, must fairly be assessed within a greater Bonn context – that of the Bonn chapel whose Principal, the Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi was an acknowledged master composer and who, from 1771 onwards (up until, in fact, the dissolution of the Bonn chapel in 1794) was the person in ultimate charge of music and of its teaching but whose compositions from the time of his own arrival (1771) until the time of his death in 1801 have virtually all disappeared without trace. Let it also be fairly acknowledged that newly composed works by any Kapellmeister were not generally credited to that person until the time of his death, or until the time of his retirement from service in that office. (The evidence of this being true is available from the archives of chapels all over Europe over centuries). The Kapellmeister often does not sign his name to his own works – this, of course, completely at odds with ordinary composers. (Only in cases where copies are made for external bodies is the name given, and even then not always).

    This forum has in the recent past discussed a number of early works that are generally attributed to Beethoven – including of course two great cantatas (one for the death of the Emperor Joseph 2nd, and another for the accession of his successor, Leopold 2nd) so we do not need to focus long on individual works here as such. It is enough to say there are certain works on which there are doubts as to Beethoven’s paternity, though that paternity has long been granted to him. The same can be said of the cantata which, for a long time, was attributed to him from 1781, one written for the funeral of the English envoy, George Cressner and which, so we have been told in the past, was commissioned from Beethoven at the tender age of 11. The fact that this missing work still appears in various lists and various Beethoven publications seems to justify making brief reference to it.
    There are other works (chamber works) that are the subject of fair and reasonable discussion but we do not need to focus on them either. Our aim here is simply to get a rough idea of Beethoven’s compositional achievements by the time that he left Bonn to live in Vienna – and this from as solid a perspective as we can.

    Helping us in this brief study are important documents (still extant) from 1784 and beyond, the year in which the incoming new Elector of the Cologne Principality (Max Franz) succeeded Maximilian Friedrich von Koenigsegg-Rothenfels on the death of the latter. For Max Franz (a man born in 1756, the same age therefore as his friend Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart) had a great love of music, being a brother to the Emperor in Vienna, Joseph 2nd, a brother too the future Emperor Leopold, a brother therefore of Marie Antoinette queen of France etc. and, of course, a son of the Empress Maria Theresa who, herself, is known to have provided all her sons with a first class musical education.

    It is important to say briefly that between 1781 (when Beethoven was 11) and 1784 are the years in which Mozart was ‘kicking his heels in Vienna’ without a full time appointment. And that Mozart believed (the promise often made to him in person by Max Franz) that he, Mozart, would be appointed Kapellmeister at Bonn just as soon as Max Franz could arrange it. But 1784 came and went. The rest is history. Luchesi was not to be displaced.

    The 14 year old Beethoven would have been aware that the new Elector had issued one of his very first orders shortly after his arrival in the Principality for a full inventory to be made of the musical assets of the chapel. Not content to wait for the return of its Kapellmeister (then in Italy) he appointed a panel to oversee this task – a work which they were able to complete some 11 days later in early May 1784. And it’s this inventory which we can deal with first.

    In its 40 pages or so (which deals with orchestral, church music and theatre music but not with chamber music) we see no reference to Ludwig van Beethoven. This is not really so surprising, of course. But at least we are able to say with certainty that up until that time, May 1784, Beethoven had not written any works in those forms for Bonn. It is an important fact and, regardless of what is said or believed, such a fact remains a fact. Nor have we any court document which would support the assumption that Beethoven, prior to 1784, was a composer of music for Bonn. This same inventory makes no reference at all to works being in the library of the chapel by Mozart. It does mention Haydn in connection with various symphonies and masses – these, though, attributed to him between 1771 and 1784 only and whose attribution is a subject of controversy that does not involve us here.

    During the first decade of his electorship (1784-1794) Max Franz is known to have added his own private library of music to the archives at Bonn.

    (Various attempts were made to restore the Bonn music archives back to the city of Bonn after the Napoleonic era but they failed. It is to be regretted that these archives, now mainly at Modena in Italy were and still are the property of the Principality of Bonn and not that of the electors or their ancestors).

    Now, regarding the main issue of Bonn records of Beethoven, the catalogue at Modena known as C.53.1 (a document indisputably from Bonn and containing a list of instrumental works entered in to the Bonn archives between the 1784 Inventory and the dissolution of the chapel in October 1794), a catalogue whose first title page has been ripped out, records new acquisitions by the chapel in that decade of new music.
    It records, in fact, the name of Ludwig van Beethoven – 3 times. One of these works is an Organ fugue. But the autographs of all 3 works have somehow disappeared – vanished – and were lost some time between the dissolution of the chapel in 1794 and the arrival of its main part in Italy.

    This small number of Beethoven pieces (3) are the only documented references we find from Bonn sources to confirm that Beethoven was a composer prior to the time he arrived in Vienna. And in full confirmation that this is the real scale of Beethoven’s achievements we have a letter (and a reply) written from Joseph Haydn to the elector Max Franz from Vienna dated 23rd November 1793 – in which Haydn asks for money for Beethoven. The Elector replied by pointing out that the 5 works written so far by Beethoven actually included 3 which he wrote while still at Bonn. And therefore, on two separate grounds (C53.1) and this Haydn/Max Franz correspondence, we see that Beethoven’s actual compositional achievements by the time he arrived in Vienna were not, in fact, as great as have so often been claimed for him.

    Yes, we can and should consider chamber music possibly written/published at Bonn or elsewhere (none of which would have featured in the 1784 inventory). But these very same pieces are also known to have been written by Kapellmeister Luchesi and have vanished.

    I can only conclude therefore that as far as the records of Bonn are concerned Beethoven’s compositions held at the chapel during his youth were as follows –

    1. Prior to 1784 – Nil
    2. Works written by Beethoven after 1784 and before leaving for Vienna – 3

    Thus, if correct, Beethoven wrote 2 new works in Vienna after leaving Bonn and prior to Haydn’s letter of 23rd November 1793.


    #2
    Well I was hoping for something new Robert and an acknowledgement of certain facts we have established beyond doubt which you still choose to ignore. But firstly, you say that Luchesi was ultimatelty in charge of music from 1771, what about the current kapellmeister who didn't die until 1773? You also say "that newly composed works by any Kapellmeister were not generally credited to that person until the time of his death, or until the time of his retirement from service in that office." Where then is the music of grandfather Beethoven?

    Now coming to Beethoven's early compositions - we have already established that Neefe had the Dressler variations published at Mannheim in 1782. There can be little doubt in this or the dating of the Electoral sonatas.

    So we have to conclude that the Bonn chapel records do not record these works for some reason, not that Beethoven didn't write them prior to 1784. Neefe did not record Chamber music for example and the Modena file contains only a fraction of the Bonn music.

    The suggestion that up until the age of 21 Beethoven produced only 3 works is absurd and is further evidence that the files you rely on so heavily are indeed flawed.

    One has to say that if this is the level of scholarship provided by Taboga it is no wonder he is ignored by professional musicologists.

    ------------------
    'Man know thyself'



    [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-20-2006).]
    'Man know thyself'

    Comment


      #3

      Peter,

      How interesting that your first reaction to my post should be abuse. In point of fact virtually all the questions/issues you raise can be answered and I will of course do so shortly. I must ask in the meantime what you base your attitude on ? It is certainly not the available evidence from Bonn.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by robert newman:

        Peter,

        How interesting that your first reaction to my post should be abuse. In point of fact virtually all the questions/issues you raise can be answered and I will of course do so shortly. I must ask in the meantime what you base your attitude on ? It is certainly not the available evidence from Bonn.

        Robert I hardly think my response abusive, adbrupt yes because you're digging up old arguments without any new evidence. You ask what evidence I have, well for the Dressler variations alone we have Cramer 1783 and Neefe's comments. Then of course for you there is the troublesome matter of Beethoven's own reference to this work, the 3 piano sonatas and a song.

        ------------------
        'Man know thyself'
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #5

          Peter, I think it's possible to identify several main questions in your post and will try to answer them as well as I can -

          Q1 'You say Luchesi was ultimately in charge of music from 1771, what about the current kapellmeister who didn't die until 1773'?

          In reply -

          The then Elector Max Friedrich had personally invited Luchesi to Bonn in 1771 whilst Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder (Beethoven's grandfather)was still alive, officially still Kapellmeister but, in actual reality, incapacitated by a recurring drink problem. Attempts had been made previously within Bonn to start some other business for Beethoven the Elder including (it seems) selling alcohol ! This delicate situation (of replacing an incumbent but largely unproductive Kapellmeister who had not retired and whose livelihood was at stake) made it tactfully necessary for part of Luchesi's salary (400 ducats per year) to be transfered to the Beethoven household during these same years leading up to the death of Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder as a sort of unofficial pension.

          Q2. You also say "that newly composed works by any Kapellmeister were not generally credited to that person until the time of his death, or until the time of his retirement from service in that office." Where then is the music of grandfather Beethoven?

          In reply -

          It seems virtally all music composed by Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder (i.e. composed during the 1760's) was part of archive music from Bonn sold at auction after the death of a previous Elector (Clemence August) due to the financial problems of the chapel during the years leading up to its sale.

          If Neefe had the Dressler variations published at Mannheim in 1782 (which I have previously agreed is possible), fine. In that case I will not be surprised to see the name of Abbe Vogler associated with such an unusual event. (Having studied the life and career of this man in some detail he, Vogler, is definitely inclined to 'nurture' Beethoven as he undoubtedly did for Haydn and Mozart. But Vogler, despite remaining in contact with Beethoven, and despite 'helping' the young Beethoven, was no real friend of Beethoven nor of his career. (I won't go in to this further here except to say that Vogler represented the musical establishment and Vogler had firm ideas about what Beethoven should be and what he should do. Beethoven, eventually, broke free).

          Yes, Neefe did not record chamber music in the Inventory held at Bonn in 1784. I did mention this in my original post.

          It seems that the entries in the Catalogue C.53.1 and information contained in the Haydn /Max Franz correspondence show us clearly the scale of Beethoven's compositional achievements at the time (some years after his arrival in Bonn). They are speaking of virtually the same thing. 5 works, 3 of them written at Bonn. This surely confirms beyond reasonable doubt the true scale of this question.


          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by robert newman:

            Peter, I think it's possible to identify several main questions in your post and will try to answer them as well as I can -

            Q1 'You say Luchesi was ultimately in charge of music from 1771, what about the current kapellmeister who didn't die until 1773'?

            In reply -

            The then Elector Max Friedrich had personally invited Luchesi to Bonn in 1771 whilst Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder (Beethoven's grandfather)was still alive, officially still Kapellmeister but, in actual reality, incapacitated by a recurring drink problem. Attempts had been made previously within Bonn to start some other business for Beethoven the Elder including (it seems) selling alcohol ! This delicate situation (of replacing an incumbent but largely unproductive Kapellmeister who had not retired and whose livelihood was at stake) made it tactfully necessary for part of Luchesi's salary (400 ducats per year) to be transfered to the Beethoven household during these same years leading up to the death of Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder as a sort of unofficial pension.

            Q2. You also say "that newly composed works by any Kapellmeister were not generally credited to that person until the time of his death, or until the time of his retirement from service in that office." Where then is the music of grandfather Beethoven?

            In reply -

            It seems virtally all music composed by Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder (i.e. composed during the 1760's) was part of archive music from Bonn sold at auction after the death of a previous Elector (Clemence August) due to the financial problems of the chapel during the years leading up to its sale.

            If Neefe had the Dressler variations published at Mannheim in 1782 (which I have previously agreed is possible), fine. In that case I will not be surprised to see the name of Abbe Vogler associated with such an unusual event. (Having studied the life and career of this man in some detail he, Vogler, is definitely inclined to 'nurture' Beethoven as he undoubtedly did for Haydn and Mozart. But Vogler, despite remaining in contact with Beethoven, and despite 'helping' the young Beethoven, was no real friend of Beethoven nor of his career. (I won't go in to this further here except to say that Vogler represented the musical establishment and Vogler had firm ideas about what Beethoven should be and what he should do. Beethoven, eventually, broke free).

            Yes, Neefe did not record chamber music in the Inventory held at Bonn in 1784. I did mention this in my original post.

            It seems that the entries in the Catalogue C.53.1 and information contained in the Haydn /Max Franz correspondence show us clearly the scale of Beethoven's compositional achievements at the time (some years after his arrival in Bonn). They are speaking of virtually the same thing. 5 works, 3 of them written at Bonn. This surely confirms beyond reasonable doubt the true scale of this question.

            What about the fact that Modena contains only a fraction of the Bonn music, the majority having been dispersed in Vienna libraries? Perhaps you would like to list the 3 works you consider Beethoven actually wrote at Bonn? Might they include the works mentioned in the Neue Blumenlese fur klavierliebhaber 1787? Rondo for pf in A, Arioso 'An einen Saugling and a piano concerto in Eb? Or perhaps the 3 piano sonatas and the Dressler variations which Beethoven refers to as amongst his first compositions? ,or how about the works referred to by Haydn - a quintet, 8 part Parthie, Oboe concerto, variations for piano and a fugue? to say nothing of the Ritterballet, Cantatas, which even if you do not accept as Beethoven's, a letter by Clemens August von Schall of June 16th, 1790 proves - "As far as the music is concerned, Beethoven has produced such a densely written sonata on the death of Joseph II - the text is by Averdonk - that it can only be performed here by a full orchestra or other similar body."


            ------------------
            'Man know thyself'

            [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-20-2006).]
            'Man know thyself'

            Comment


              #7

              Dear Peter,

              You wrote -

              'What about the fact that Modena contains only a fraction of the Bonn music, the majority having been dispersed in Vienna libraries'?

              You are entirely right that Modena holds today only a fraction of the Bonn music archives and that the majority was much later returned and dispersed in various Vienna libraries. In fact it's one of the unsolved mysteries of the Bonn archive case (a case that definitely involved 19th century destruction of records and 20th century false reporting) so as to make it extremely difficult to know which Vienna librarian received precisely which manuscripts on their return from Modena). So that, to date, every attempt made to determine which Vienna library obtained which part of the Bonn archives and when they actually did so has not succeeded. It is of course unthinkable that a Vienna library would have accepted such manuscripts without taking meticulous care in knowing precisely what they were accepting and when. (There is one Vienna library in particular that is strongly suspected of abnormalities in this case). The Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde - since the sacred and vocal music is known to have been transfered to the Vienna National Bibliotek and the instrumental/chamber music to the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna (an institute regulated by not by public but private law and therefore not subject to the accountability of other institutes and libraries, and which has to date defended its secrets with every possible legal and even illegal means.

              If it is ever argued that the Musikfreunde in Vienna never received material from the Bonn archives via Modena (probably including Beethoven material and much other 'Mozart' and 'Haydn'music) let it be acknowledged that HC Robbins Landon (a man who has been involved in obscuring this issue and who undoubtedly had access to Musikfreunde archives) let slip crucial information in saying that -

              'The GdM has however had the good fortune to possess 3 entire collections (of Haydn) each of which contains a great number of Haydn's orchestral works. One of these, probably the Kees collection, has already been discussed. The next in importance, the so-called 'Kaiserliche Sammlung' has unfortunately been broken up to be kept in several different places.

              In the same source Robbins Landon mentions in passing - though without realising its significance while talking at the time of 'Haydn's' symphony Hob.63) -

              'Manuscript parts of Hob 63 at the GdM - same catalogue number.....Italian paper in 4 (watermarked NIC HEISLER otherwise found only in Modena). Probably originally from a source in Modena....'

              It is clear from this rare admission (and there are many other lines of evidence) that part of the instrumental Bonn music archive that was at Modena did end up at the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna.

              Taboga has written -

              'As the threat represented by the Bonn archive had been known since May of 1784 (i.e. in respect of 'Mozart' and 'Haydn') it was arranged to first hide it in Vienna so as not to have to return it to Prussia, who had, of course, become heirs to the principality of Cologne after the restoration in 1814. From this fact it may be certainly concluded that the Luchesi archive reached Modena after 1814 and before 1851. It remains, however, to explain why only a part of these works are in Modena today, and why some of the frontispieces and covers of these are missing, including the frontispiece of the Catalogue C.53.1

              The dispersion of the Bonn archives, their history before arriving in Modena, the details of their return, and crucially important details of their precise content have always been obscured from view whenever detailed questions have been raised. It was not until 1978 that the first detailed report of the Bonn archives was published, and even this had serious errors. At this time simple questions such as 'which Vienna libraries received what, and when' remain largely unanswered.

              The mystification remains till today. And the reason for it consists in works held at Bonn archives which, in point of fact, call in to question the paternity of many works by 'Haydn' and 'Mozart'.

              I agree that Beethoven may have had works published away from Bonn. That is already said to be so in the case of the Dressler variations etc. I am not suggesting that the Bonn records are the whole picture. Merely that their records are as I have described. And, since they are so (taking in to account the dates at which various works were first attributed to Beethoven) I think it fair to say that Beethoven's achievements are under far less need for severe criticism than those of his predecessors.

              The work written by Beethoven for the death of Joseph 2nd (which I have discussed before on this forum) was in my view a quite different work that than popularly believed today.

              And so, yes, Beethoven wrote more than 5 works prior to coming to Vienna. Nobody disputes this. The exact number remains a matter of study. But the official record at Bonn tells us of 3.

              No Peter, I don't know the identity of the other 2 pieces of Beethoven (besides the fugue) in catalogue C.53.1 but I will try to find out.

              Regards

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by robert newman:

                The work written by Beethoven for the death of Joseph 2nd (which I have discussed before on this forum) was in my view a quite different work that than popularly believed today.

                And so, yes, Beethoven wrote more than 5 works prior to coming to Vienna. Nobody disputes this. The exact number remains a matter of study. But the official record at Bonn tells us of 3.

                No Peter, I don't know the identity of the other 2 pieces of Beethoven (besides the fugue) in catalogue C.53.1 but I will try to find out.

                Regards

                Please Robert let us leave the Haydn and Mozart issue out of this and concentrate on Beethoven. I fail to see your point if you accept that Beethoven wrote more than 5 works in Bonn - do we therefore agree that the Bonn records are not accurate?

                ------------------
                'Man know thyself'
                'Man know thyself'

                Comment


                  #9


                  Peter, I refered to the Haydn/Mozart issue only because it was the fate of the 3 early Beethoven manuscripts to become part of the overall mystery that is the Bonn music archives.

                  You write -

                  'I fail to see your point if you accept that Beethoven wrote more than 5 works in Bonn - do we therefore agree that the Bonn records are not accurate'?

                  Well, I think the Bonn records are accurate but are clearly not the complete picture. Still the catalogue C53.1 and the Haydn/Max Franz correspondence surely makes it clear (to me anyway) we are not talking of large numbers of works by Beethoven of which Bonn is aware prior to 1793. Had Beethoven been able to show he composed more than 5 works by 1793 he (through Haydn) would have done so. He claims 5 and is reminded 3 of them were composed at Bonn. Now, that fact seems at least a strong case for saying works attributed to him from his Bonn period (many added to his supposed list only long after Beethoven's death) may not actually have been of his, Beethoven's, composition, notwithstanding the fact that he may indeed have written for external sources.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by robert newman:


                    Peter, I refered to the Haydn/Mozart issue only because it was the fate of the 3 early Beethoven manuscripts to become part of the overall mystery that is the Bonn music archives.

                    You write -

                    'I fail to see your point if you accept that Beethoven wrote more than 5 works in Bonn - do we therefore agree that the Bonn records are not accurate'?

                    Well, I think the Bonn records are accurate but are clearly not the complete picture. Still the catalogue C53.1 and the Haydn/Max Franz correspondence surely makes it clear (to me anyway) we are not talking of large numbers of works by Beethoven of which Bonn is aware prior to 1793. Had Beethoven been able to show he composed more than 5 works by 1793 he (through Haydn) would have done so. He claims 5 and is reminded 3 of them were composed at Bonn. Now, that fact seems at least a strong case for saying works attributed to him from his Bonn period (many added to his supposed list only long after Beethoven's death) may not actually have been of his, Beethoven's, composition, notwithstanding the fact that he may indeed have written for external sources.

                    Well Robert I listed more than 5 Beethoven compositions that are well documented by different sources other than the Bonn records. These are a Rondo for pf in A, Arioso 'An einen Saugling and a piano concerto in Eb. The 3 Electoral piano sonatas and the Dressler variations, a quintet, 8 part Parthie, Oboe concerto, variations for piano. A Cantata on the death of Joseph II.

                    Of course I believe there are many more works, songs, variations, chamber pieces such as the piano quartets you claim 'are known to be by Luchesi' (known by yourself and Taboga, certainly not any notable Beethoven scholar), but I have only listed the ones I can find direct corroborative contemporary written evidence for at the moment.

                    You claim that C.53.1 and Haydn's letter suggest the approximate extent of Beethoven's Bonn compositions. According to Max Franz only the Fugue was not from Bonn, the other 4 works were.

                    You haven't demonstrated that Beethoven didn't write the works attributed to him at all, only that Haydn's letter shows at least 4 works written at Bonn and C.53 does not represent the full extent of Beethoven's Bonn period.

                    ------------------
                    'Man know thyself'



                    [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-20-2006).]
                    'Man know thyself'

                    Comment


                      #11

                      You are absolutely right.

                      The only other point I would make is one of clarification. I do not say many compositions now attributed to the young Beethoven were necessarily Luchesi compositions. That MAY of course be true. Given various facts. But I do not know for sure that it IS true. That has always been the situation. In a few cases (such as the Cressner Cantata of 1781 and the two cantatas for emperors) I think these are not Beethoven works - but this view has already been argued at length here before.

                      Neither Taboga myself has ever suggested that Beethoven should be 'tarred with the same brush' as Haydn and Mozart. It just happens to be the case that Luchesi's chamber works (amongst virtually everything else he ever wrote between 1771 and his death) has disappeared, so there are, to be fair, at least 2 candidates for several works traditionally attributed solely in much later years to the young Beethoven.

                      Nobody has 'killer facts' in sorting that out - not yet. And, as previously said, nothing here suggests a major revolution in Beethoven's canon of works. It is simply a description of what the official records of Bonn say.

                      Critics like to say this is an Italy versus Germany debate. It is not. It's simply an attempt to be fair and honest with the availahle evidence and to respect the findings of everyone interested in the subject. There is no dogmatism here. No refusal to study any fact or to leave any page unturned.

                      I honestly believe that the contaminating influence of those who 'ran' Haydn and Mozart's careers could so easily have seriously affected that of Beethoven's too. But events prevented that from occurring. These, plus the very strong individualism of Beethoven himself. So this discussion on early Beethoven is made with total respect to Beethoven as a man and as an artist. As a British person I have no axe to grind in any supposed Italy/German debate.

                      Taboga deserves great credit. There is definitely a space within the known facts to allow the existence of a great composer living and operating in the late 18th century who just happens to have been Beethoven's Kapellmeister at Bonn. I think that even Taboga would concede that the genius of Beethoven surpassed even that of Luchesi - great as I think his own really was.

                      It must be noted that students of Beethoven have proved to be far more open minded and fair in this difficult and controversial area of research than others.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by robert newman:


                        It must be noted that students of Beethoven have proved to be far more open minded and fair in this difficult and controversial area of research than others.

                        That's hardly surprising since your claims are not quite so way out for Beethoven! As you know (like most people) I do not accept Taboga's theories and do not therefore believe that Luchesi was more than an able composer of above average ability. Please do not respond to this point because we have debated it ad infinitum in the past.

                        Regarding the Cressener cantata, there is nothing to discuss as the music doesn't exist and most scholars agree with you. Until a manuscript or other evidence surfaces it is a dead issue. Concerning the Joseph Cantata there is plenty of evidence that Beethoven wrote such a work and the Leopold cantata as well.
                        A few other works I can find definitive proof of Beethoven composing around 1783 are two songs: WoO107 published in the weekly magazine Blumenese fur liebhaber 1783 and WoO108 the following year. A Rondo for piano in C WoO.48 published in 1783 by Bossler, in Speyer.

                        You will notice in these posts that I have provided evidence for nearly all the works currently attributed to Beethoven for 1783, contradicting your earlier assertion that Beethoven was not composing at so early a date. The Kafka sketchleafs offer ample evidence for much of the Bonn music after 1786.

                        ------------------
                        'Man know thyself'



                        [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-21-2006).]
                        'Man know thyself'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Robert Robert Robert Robert Robert... (a heavy sigh, looks to the heavens)...

                          ------------------
                          "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                          http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Barry Cooper did a piece on Beethoven's Childhood Compositions for the Beethoven Journal......must try and find it!!

                            Fidelio

                            Must it be.....it must be

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I see no problem here. The records at Boon show clearly that Beethoven had 3 works entered in the decade or so that he was there. Any argument ???? None. None possible.

                              That record is further confirmed/showed to be reasonable by correspondence between Haydn and Max Franz of 1793 - at which time Max Franz, the Elector, says Beethoven has written to date 5 works, only 2 of them since his arrival in Vienna. Any argument ? None. None possible.

                              Having 5 times said that Beethoven wrote other pieces (such as chamber pieces etc.) that were not included in the 1784 Inventory I do not see what possible problem there is here.

                              I repeat (for the fourth time) that I will accept works being externally published by Beethoven (such as the Dressler Variations at Manneheim etc) though this is a strange and not regular arrangement.

                              But the net result of all this MUST reduce the number of works attributed (still today) in various Beethoven lists as you must concede. Why ? Well, here is a partial list of 'Beethoven' works which are NOT Beethoven's -

                              1. The Cantata on the Death of Joseph
                              2. The Cantata on the Accession of Leopold
                              3. The Cressner Cantata

                              and various other chamber works added long after Beethoven's death (copies held at Bonn) which may have been chamber music by Luchesi, for all we know. Has Luchesi's name even been acknowledged in such studies. Hardly at all !!!

                              There are certainly works NOT contained within the records of Bonn - works that never have been there.

                              On these entirely reasonable grounds (and here I am talking of only 3 works at this time) we can say Beethoven's output at Bonn was less than many books still in print are telling us. Any dispute ? None possible.

                              Goodness, you cannot simply expect to attribute works to Beethoven decades after the composer's death (works he never once claimed to have written in his entire lifetime) and imagine they will remain solidly part of the Beethoven canon. The emphatic evidence from Bonn itself is on the side of those who say he, Beethoven, wrote more than those records show, (as agreed again) but that he did not write those 3 works listed above and others from Bonn we could discuss.

                              The net result is for a reasonable person to agree that the number of Beethoven works from Bonn is not increasing but is slightly decreasing in respect of AT LEAST 3 WORKS. No problem - just plain fact. Not a massive change. But a change nevertheless and one entirely justified by the actual evidence.

                              Yes, all the works you list are fine. They do not alter the Bonn records one iota. They were not relevant to the 1784 inventory and that inventory did not deal with chamber music.

                              And there still remains (as we all know) at least one alternative candidate for at least several of the chamber works from Bonn which have been attributed to Beethoven for well over a century. This too is plain fact. No argument.




                              [This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-21-2006).]

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